Umesh-Ji:
Your impression about housewives is archaic. Many women would take it as an affront. After being part of a department where women are a majority, and that too in Harvard, I thought you would have a different perspective on women/housewives.
I know you don't mean ill as I've known you from your writings in here for years, but this analogy seems as if it is written by somebody who uses 21st century technology with a mindset of the 18th century, where polygamy was looked upon as a virtue.
I hope you don't mind my writing this to you as someone who's older to you (that's a good tradition there - elders giving good advice to the young :)).
>From: umesh sharma <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: assam@pikespeak.uccs.edu
>Subject: Re: [Assam] even if you don't like Hindi films
>Date: Sat, 7 May 2005 23:25:09 +0100 (BST)
>
>Alpanaji,
>
>I was wondering whether states have the freedom to pass and implement laws on -right-to-information, right to enact laws from promoting business including exprts, right to set up centres of educational and technical excelence. Right to enage in prospecting for mineral wealth .
>
>I mean when I find everyone cribbing about lack of autonomy -- I feel the states are supposed to be sort of purdah-clad housewifes inside the harems of the nation --who have no freedom except for maintaining order inside the house, feeding the people, taking care of the sick and the kids and keeping it neat and clean--and that they have no say in economic and social matters.
>
>I was wondering whether it was true. I am still confused about it ----maybe the nation has some favourite wives(states) and some are less loved.
>
>Maybe --the states are not housewives --but and band of sisters or brothers - having equal say.
>Maybe some brothers or sisters have more influence on the parents. Or maybe the parenst are dead and the bigger/elder siblings are trying to control everything.
>
>Umesh
>
>"Alpana B. Sarangapani" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > Is it beacuse states have some level of freedom to take initiatives in removing social ills and bettering their life? -- perhaps state's can pass their own right-to-information laws as well -and
>
>
>
>Never heard of this. Do you mean the Center is going to prevent if the state officials take initiatives to stop corruption?
>
>Have you been taking private lessons from C'da and company, Umesh-Ji? :)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >From: umesh sharma <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >To: Chan Mahanta <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Rajen Barua <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, assam@pikespeak.uccs.edu
> >Subject: Re: [Assam] even if you don't like Hindi films
> >Date: Sat, 7 May 2005 16:56:37 +0100 (BST)
> >
> >I wonder how some states in India are doing much better - economically as well as with less corruption --perhaps Kerala, Karnataka, Goa and maybe a few more ---given that they are also "burdened" under the "yoke of the Indian constituion" --and state-center relations.
> >
> > Is it beacuse states have some level of freedom to take initiatives in removing social ills and bettering their life? -- perhaps state's can pass their own right-to-information laws as well -and implement them. That would make sense to me -about having states at all --so that they can function autonomously.
> >
> >Umesh
> >
> >C-da wrote:
> >
> >Now just because that demand for change in India is not loud enough does not mean that Assam ought to languish with the rest. That is MY point. I know it unnerves many of you, and more so because I framed it together with the argument that if need be Assam will have to wrest the control of its destiny from a dysfunctional Indian system. That kind of defiance is scary for you good but highly risk averse folks.
> >
> >
> >Chan Mahanta <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >Rajen:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >Since the parent Institutions in UK seem to be running OK in the West with accountability,
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >*** You answered a vital part of your question yourself --- with accountability. Some other parts are: Transparency-- to enable the people to participate and keep tab of what is going on. Yet another part is responsiveness, which is tied in with accountability.
> >
> >
> >For example, Assam insurgency did not happen all of a sudden one fine morning at Rongpur with the announcement of ULFA's birth. The reasons for it were brewing for years and years. The people's representatives were very much aware of it--but it was ignored. By the state reps., by the Central reps., with full understanding and blessings of the real authorities.
> >
> >
> >Here governmental unresponsiveness created the situation we are in now.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >From your constant remarks against the Indian system, one gets the impression that probably >the Indians copied the wrong files to start with and that is why these are found faulty without >any accountability and need to be overhauled in a major way.
> >
> >
> >*** That is because the Indian system is not an exact replica of the British system. It was adapted to fit India's needs, by the framers of the Union, as best as they could. It was a TOOL they modified to fit their own circumstances and needs. The original version was a tool that the colonialists devised to RULE India ( incidentally the colonial govts. were not EXACTLY the same as the sahebs had in their homeland, if you did not know) . Not exactly the best thing for a newly independent sovereign nation. Unfortunately many of the parts of that system remain unchanged even today. The Sentinel editorial of the other day that Kamal referred us to talks about the 19th century police manual that India still uses. Many of the components just don't work, dysfunctional.
> >
> >
> >Decades of realizing that these tools were not working right, there ought to have been moves to adjust them, re-orient them and even change them if and as necessary. There is NOTHING SACRED about a tool, that once commissioned it is for ever, that it ought not to be tuned, or honed, or re-oriented or replaced if necessary. It is like the log-tables that many desi engineering professors held sacred and did not allow the use of calculators. But they had to change and adopt the computer age. Good thing they did, isn't it?
> >
> >
> >I am not an expert or a professional in the arts and sciences of governance, and thus I cannot cite chapter and verse on what files were copied wrong, or what fared badly, or what are altogether dysfunctional. But as informed and interested part of society we can tell when things are NOT WORKING. I may not know exactly where the problem lies in an automobile when it is sputtering at 15 mph, but I know that something is not right. And I would want to fix it, or go buy a new one. Is it an unreasonable stance?
> >
> >
> >We have seen govts. come and govts. go, but have you heard of any serious move by any Indian administration to even undertake a thorough study of what might be wrong, what might need repairs, or what might need replacement? But the impetus to take something like that up can come only if there is a demand for it from the people. That demand has not been strong. There are many reasons:
> >
> >
> > ** One that stands out is that if one has not seen or experienced
> > anything better, one cannot conceive that there might be something
> > wrong with what one has.
> >
> >
> > In this instance, it also explains Dilip's quandary as to why the desi-
> > columnists and analysts keep referring to the US system. That is
> > because many of them are familiar with it, unlike, say France's
> > or Germany's, neither of which, incidentally, have the kind of diversity
> > that India or even Assam has in their hands. The closest would be an
> > European Nation, a federal democratic republic, with autonomous
> > components. Sounds familiar?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ** Another is a gross ignorance of what a functioning democratic system
> > of government is or ought to be. Over these last few years of
> > Assam Net discourses and surfing Indian media web-sites, I am convinced
> > that even to a very large percentage of the nation's best and the
> > brightest, ELECTIONS are the be all and end all of democracies.
> > That it means rule of the majority -- it can do whatever it likes.
> > That to pass a law to fix something is the same thing as correcting
> > the problem; the concept of successful enforcement being absent
> > --even in a Presidential address. That it is disloyal to question
> > or challenge the elected leaders. So on and so forth.
> >
> >
> > That is why I mentioned Colombia the other day as a country to
> > learn from. Umesh shared with us how Colombia is launching
> > an education program to teach the people what democracy is all
> > about. India needs to do that just as fundamentally as the skills
> > to read, write and do math. According to Umesh Colombia also is
> > enforcing their right-to-information laws, another critical
> > lesson for Indian democracy to learn.
> >
> >
> >Now just because that demand for change in India is not loud enough does not mean that Assam ought to languish with the rest. That is MY point. I know it unnerves many of you, and more so because I framed it together with the argument that if need be Assam will have to wrest the control of its destiny from a dysfunctional Indian system. That kind of defiance is scary for you good but highly risk averse folks.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Now why would that bother a highly informed person like you or Ram or BK or Dilip or Kamal, if mine is a hare-brained , far-out idea, like you all assert it is? Obviously you can see the merit of my arguments, and that is why you get concerned that others do too, that if thinking people begin to accept and advocate such ideas it may strengthen ULFA's defiance of Indian rule. So you defend the status-quo, the dysfunctional state, like a deity, even though you do not really believe it.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >But it is time to change that stance. You have so much to contribute.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Take care.
> >
> >
> >c
> >
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> >
> >
> >
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> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >That is a burden many of us NRAs and many NRIs reel under too. They are in the min dset of those engineering professors to whom the log-tables remained sacrosanct.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
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> >
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> >
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> >
> >
> >At 12:08 AM -0500 5/7/05, Rajen Barua wrote:
> > >We cannot say that about public health, we cannot say that about the PWD, we cannot say that about the police, we cannot >say that about the judiciary, we cannot say that about the legislative branch, we cannot say that about primary or even >secondary public education.>All of these and more require dramatic turnarounds. How will you achieve that, is the question? Well before we answer that question, we must answer a more fundamental question. The question is why these institutions could not fair well compared to the Education system which produced so many talents. The question is whether these other Institutions, which also the Indians adopted from the West, (1) were originally all right but have deteriorated over the years or(2) these Institutions were faulty to start with, or in other words the Indians copied the wrong files from the West and remained faulty, without any accountability etc for last fifty years. Since the parent Institutions in UK seem to be running OK !
>in!
> > the West
> > with accountability, this question is vital to our understanding of the problem with the Indian Institutions. This is a very important question which we must know so that we can identify the problem. From your constant remarks against the Indian system, one gets the impression that probably the Indians copied the wrong files to start with and that is why these are found faulty without any accountability and need to be overhauled in a major way. But what about the other possibility? Which one do you think is correct in your view?Rajen
> >----- Original Message -----From: Chan MahantaTo: Rajen Barua ; [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Friday, May 06, 2005 10:23 PMSubject: Re: [Assam] even if you don't like Hindi films
> >At 5:52 PM -0500 5/6/05, Rajen Barua wrote:
> > >I made the point to give an example of Indians learning from others . One area is higher technical education, which it learned from >the west, mostly, and implemented their systems , generally effectively, even though it has not been in certain aspects of it; for >example in promoting critical learning, doing original research and/or development, or in application. But those are details.
> >
> > Now you are so true here. Now why we cannot say the same thing for democracy in India and say:
> >
> >
> >Rajen:
> >We cannot say that, because unlike higher technical education, most of the other institutions have gotten worse, not better. That is why.
> >We cannot say that about public health, we cannot say that about the PWD, we cannot say that about the police, we cannot say that about the judiciary, we cannot say that about the legislative branch, we cannot say that about primary or even secondary public education.
> >All of these and more require dramatic turnarounds. How will you achieve that, is the question?
> >The answer lies in accountability of the people who are in charge. That includes the legislative branch.
> >How do you hold the responsible to account for? For the elected individuals you will say it is the election process. The non-performers would be booted out.They do. But nothing changes. Why? Because the system is faulty. How? In many different ways. It is not the British Parliamentary system of democratic governance that India started out with in 1947. The institutions that the people rely on to hold the responsible accountable ceased functioning decades ago. The police is beholden to the elected reps.--members the legislature, which also is the same as the administrative branch. The supposedly independent administrative services ceased being independent decades ago too. The supposedly independent judiciary is about the only institution that still shows reliability, but only occasionally . Besides it is so horribly bogged down that it is rarely accessible to resolve serious conflicts. The checks and balances provided by separation of powers, as in the USA, does not exist. I!
>f!
> > Bhuban
> > Kokaideu is correct, the administration is not necessarily bound to obey the verdict of the SC, which would render it a paper tiger ( I am however not certain that it is so--it would be too profound an abomination). But I do know that the Center has not put in service the Right to Info. act, even after being passed by the legislature and ordered by the SC to put in place.
> >These things could be turned around only with major reforms.
> >Now, why are reforms , serious, dramatic reforms, so bad, or so scary, or the thought of it as so de-stabilizing? I certainly don't know.
> >But even if you and I and all others in Assam Net or everyone in Assam agrees that reforms ought to take place, could it happen in the seat of power, atDelhi?
> >I don't believe so. Not because people are against serious reforms. But the political will does not exist. A coalition is unlikely to be forged to put in place the reforms India needs badly. That is the unfortunate reality of India.
> >But as I said earlier, nothing would please more than to be proved wrong on this.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Another area where Indians learned fast from the West may be said to be the field of self government through a political democratic process abolishing the old archaic system of kingship and Maharajas. In fact it is amazing how India has adopted the British parliamentary system, learned its practice, and has progressed, within this short span of fifty years since independence, in spite of its various ups and downs, in a steadfast manner compared to its neighbors who are still struggling to win their political freedom from dictators in countries like Burma, Pakistan, or the Middle east. We would say the system of democratic rule has been implemented in India quite effectively, considering the size of India, which can be compared to that of Europe. It is however understood that compared to the advanced countries India has to go a long way. But the most important thing is we can say that India made the beginning and is heading in the right direction. We must say India is luck!
> >y in that
> > respect compared to many oil rich countries who are yet to make a beginning in the democratic process. Three areas where India need to focus for future development and refinement of the democratic process is (1) Corruption in administration and (2) Unbalance in the social economy (3) decentralization of power. But India has the talents, intelligence, morale, and we are quite confident that India is not going back to the middle ages, and it may be said that within next fifty to hundred years, India will surpass USA if not China and will be one of the leading economical force, if not the number one force, in the world.
> >
> > Rajen Barua
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> >From: Chan Mahanta
> >To: Rajen Barua ; assam@pikespeak.uccs.edu
> >Sent: Friday, May 06, 2005 5:12 PM
> >Subject: Re: [Assam] even if you don't like Hindi films
> >
> >
> >
> >May we take the above statement to imply that so far as education system is concerned at least, the Indian democratic system is running and kicking well, and something which is less corrupt, and of which we should be proud of?. If that is so, may we suggest that the Indians copy the Indian education system and apply it in other spears also, like PWD, ASEB, and others?.
> >
> >
> >*** That is an interesting observation Rajen.
> >
> >I notice that you have this need to simplify things down to the virtues of the existing Indian democracy as a solution for everything. I understand. These are complex issues. Unfortunately simple answers like you suggest don't have a history of being effective --in any field.
> >
> >
> >I made the point to give an example of Indians learning from others . One area is higher technical education, which it learned from the west, mostly, and implemented their systems , generally effectively, even though it has not been in certain aspects of it; for example in promoting critical learning, doing original research and/or development, or in application. But those are details.
> >
> >The point I was making was that Indians did not have to wait for a century or two to be at par with other advanced societies. They learned it real fast and applied it well for their own use, in just about a quarter century, if not less.
> >Of course the fact that they had a head start with the British established system to begin with.
> >
> >Funny thing is that these morally weak and genetically corrupt people somehow rose to excelling in technical or professional studies without bribing or cheating their way through all the way. Isn't that surprising?
> >
> >I am of course being sarcastic for obvious reasons. I don't for a moment buy the notion that Indians are morally weak or genetically corrupt or any such garbage
> >like we hear in this forum so often.
> >
> >It is for that reason I believe that the broken Indian governance, if overhauled thoroughly, adapting and incorporating the best features that others have developed and utilized effectively , will turn around the downward spiral it has been steadily going down in.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >At 10:31 AM -0500 5/6/05, Rajen Barua wrote:
> > >If that is true, then Rajen will also will have to explain how he for example had an education as a world class engineer, right out there in Assam Engg. College? Or >Kamal as a physician? Or APJ Kalam the rocketry engineer?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Rajen
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: Chan Mahanta
> >To: Rajen Barua ; assam@pikespeak.uccs.edu
> >Sent: Friday, May 06, 2005 9:29 AM
> >Subject: Re: [Assam] even if you don't like Hindi films
> >
> > >Now what made the system USA system less corrupt now. Did USA changed the administrative >or parliamentary system suddenly that we don't see so much of such cases of corruption >anymore? I don't think so. The USA system had been there almost same for last 200 years
> >
> >
> >One of the biggest fallacies of these arguments lie right here. It is based on a profoundly faulty concept of how the US system works and/or how its functioning has evolved over two centuries. This is where the fault of the entire arguments lie.
> >
> >
> >
> >If the analogy is valid then it might or ought to take another, at least, a century if not two, for India to have some semblance of an orderly and effective democratic system. That would mean Indians are unable to learn from others' experiences or innovations, unlike, say Singapore, or Colombia, or Taiwan, or Korea, or Malaysia. Or une willing to learn.
> >
> >If that is true, then Rajen will also will have to explain how he for example had an education as a world class engineer, right out there in Assam Engg. College? Or Kamal as a physician? Or APJ Kalam the rocketry engineer?
> >
> >Does it make sense? You decide.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >At 9:09 AM -0500 5/6/05, Rajen Barua wrote:
> >Umesh:
> >When I questioned the system, I was questioning the system within the present democratic system; definitely we are not trying to bring other system like Communism or Socialism which you have correctly concluded to be dead for all practical purposes.
> >
> >
> >
> >Now, having said that, let us analyze the whys and hows of the story or let us de-romanticize the story and try to see why such a story would not have happened in the West, and try to see if it was due to the people or the administrative system here.
> >
> >
> >1) semi-literate NGO female worker ("Sathin") Ms. Bhanwari Devi, who was raped in her village near Jaipur , after she called police to prevent child marriages -- Nice plot for a story. I don't see anything outside the human character so far either here or in India . In this or any other country also we would call police to stop crime. We have not stopped this type of crime here. Crime occurs. So both India and USA get equal marks so far. No win.
> >
> >
> >2) It was very sad to see my hometown's corrupt police (including police women) and impotent justice and city-smart, fame hungry NGO feminist women leaders -who did nothing for her. Now here comes the killer. After reading your views, the key issue is seem to be "corrupt police" who did nothing and that is why she did not receive justice. In this country also there had been hundreds of cases where justice did not prevail due to such corrupt police. May be in USA also such type of police corruptions were rampant hundred years ago. I am taking KJD's words that people are of equal morality everywhere in this world. A police in Jaipur cannot be less moral than a police in Houston say.
> >
> >
> >Now what made the system USA system less corrupt now. Did USA changed the administrative or parliamentary system suddenly that we don't see so much of such cases of corruption anymore? I don't think so. The USA system had been there almost same for last 200 years . Then what happened that people have gradually become less corrupt and more dutiful and sincere so that we see more and more of justice being prevailing in this country? How the wild unruly west was brought down to bow down to democracy and honor the democratic process? I think that is the million dollar question.
> >
> >
> >Let us pose and think. If we can find the answer, we can find what we need to do in India.
> >
> >
> >Or in other words, you need to answer yourself:
> >
> >
> >3) I think one day I might have to do something about it myself.
> >
> >
> >What you would do?
> >
> >
> >Rajenda
> >
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: umesh sharma
> >To: Rajen Barua ; assam@pikespeak.uccs.edu
> >Sent: Friday, May 06, 2005 7:16 AM
> >Subject: Re: [Assam] even if you don't like Hindi films
> >
> >Rajen-da,
> >
> >
> >I am not an expert in governance, but the only "system" people generally talk about is socialism or communism ----which is a planned economy ----but that system has colllapsed.
> >
> >
> >For every other kind of society, I believe, there is the ideal of a welfare state (well I am getting confused again), but individuals have to continuously strive to keep their heads held high and those of their near and dear ones -- a govt "by" the people as you pointed out.
> >
> >
> >The older "system" was th royal system --which functioned as well as the competency of the kingship --but I guess democracy is better or can be made to work better as citizens learn of their new roles as citizens as time goes by.
> >
> >
> >I am never good with the abstract - but here it is.
> >
> >
> >Umesh
> >
> >Rajen Barua <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >Umesh:
> >Let this be case for our study.
> >In this case in your opinion, you see coward people, corrupt people, dishonest people, immoral people or you see something inherently wrong with the system so that if you replace the present system with some imaginary golden system everything will be OK as being claimed by Chandan repeatedly. If you see something wrong with the system, can you identify specifically what exactly is wrong.
> >
> >Rajenda
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: umesh sharma
> >To: assam@pikespeak.uccs.edu
> >Sent: Friday, May 06, 2005 12:36 AM
> >Subject: [Assam] even if you don't like Hindi films
> >
> >Now, Ash as abused NRI wife
> >http://in.rediff.com/movies/2005/may/05ash.htm
> >
> >
> >
> >'Acting on Faith' explores lives of three women
> >http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/2005/04.28/11-faith.html
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Hollywood based Mundhra's film "Bawandar-the cyclone" - was about a real life, semi-literate NGO female worker ("Sathin") Ms. Bhanwari Devi, who was raped in her village near Jaipur , after she called police to prevent child marraiges to take place in her village. It was very sad to see my hometown's corrupt police (including police women) and impotent justice and city-smart, fame hungry NGO feminist women leaders -who did nothing for her. I was in Jaipur at that time. He himself is from Rajasthan.
> >
> >
> >I think one day I might have to do something about it myself.
> >
> >
> >Umesh
> >
> >---------------------------------
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