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>The institutions that the people rely on to hold the responsible
accountable ceased functioning decades ago.
When you used the word,
ceased, it would imply that these Institutions were
running fine to start with at 1947-50 (?). In other words, it would
mean that these Institutions were then running well decades ago
(shall we say 40 years ago, 1965-70?), and then suddenly (or gradually, say)
these Institutions ceased functioning properly
If the above is the case, we need to find
out how the good system started to malfunction before we start to overhaul
these. Because if we overhaul these without knong the cause of the
malfunction, these may start to malfunction again. So it is very important
that we know eaxactly why the good Instituions started to malfunction and how
the accountability factor dropped out of these Institutions after functioing a
few yaers.
Now what do you think is the cause of this
malfunction which started couple of decades ago.?
Rajen
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, May 06, 2005 10:23 PM
Subject: Re: [Assam] even if you don't
like Hindi films
At 5:52 PM -0500 5/6/05, Rajen Barua wrote:
>I made the
point to give an example of Indians learning from others . One area is
higher technical education, which it learned from >the west, mostly, and
implemented their systems , generally effectively, even though it has not
been in certain aspects of it; for >example in promoting critical
learning, doing original research and/or development, or in
application. But those are details.
Now you are
so true here. Now why we cannot say the same thing for democracy in India
and say:
Rajen:
We cannot say that, because unlike higher technical education, most of
the other institutions have gotten worse, not better. That is why.
We cannot say that about public health, we cannot say that about the PWD,
we cannot say that about the police, we cannot say that about the judiciary,
we cannot say that about the legislative branch, we cannot say that about
primary or even secondary public education.
All of these and more require dramatic turnarounds. How will you achieve
that, is the question?
The answer lies in accountability of the people who are in charge. That
includes the legislative branch.
How do you hold the responsible to account for? For the elected
individuals you will say it is the election process. The non-performers would
be booted out.
They do. But nothing changes. Why? Because the system is faulty. How? In
many different ways. It is not the British Parliamentary system of democratic
governance that India started out with in 1947. The institutions that the
people rely on to hold the responsible accountable ceased functioning decades
ago. The police is beholden to the elected reps.--members the legislature,
which also is the same as the administrative branch. The supposedly
independent administrative services ceased being independent decades ago too.
The supposedly independent judiciary is about the only institution that still
shows reliability, but only occasionally . Besides it is so horribly bogged
down that it is rarely accessible to resolve serious conflicts. The checks and
balances provided by separation of powers, as in the USA, does not exist. If
Bhuban Kokaideu is correct, the administration is not necessarily bound to
obey the verdict of the SC, which would render it a paper tiger ( I am however
not certain that it is so--it would be too profound an abomination). But I do
know that the Center has not put in service the Right to Info. act, even after
being passed by the legislature and ordered by the SC to put in place.
These things could be turned around only with major reforms.
Now, why are reforms , serious, dramatic reforms, so bad, or so scary, or
the thought of it as so de-stabilizing? I certainly don't know.
But even if you and I and all others in Assam Net or everyone in Assam
agrees that reforms ought to take place, could it happen in the seat of power,
at
Delhi?
I don't believe so. Not because people are against serious reforms. But
the political will does not exist. A coalition is unlikely to be forged to put
in place the reforms India needs badly. That is the unfortunate reality of
India.
But as I said earlier, nothing would please more than to be proved wrong
on this.
Another area where Indians learned fast from the West may
be said to be the field of self government through a political
democratic process abolishing the old archaic system of kingship and
Maharajas. In fact it is amazing how India has adopted the British
parliamentary system, learned its practice, and has progressed, within this
short span of fifty years since independence, in spite of its various
ups and downs, in a steadfast manner compared to its neighbors who are still
struggling to win their political freedom from dictators in countries
like Burma, Pakistan, or the Middle east. We would say the system of
democratic rule has been implemented in India quite effectively, considering
the size of India, which can be compared to that of Europe. It is however
understood that compared to the advanced countries India has to go a long
way. But the most important thing is we can say that India made the
beginning and is heading in the right direction. We must say India is lucky
in that respect compared to many oil rich countries who are yet to make a
beginning in the democratic process. Three areas where India need to
focus for future development and refinement of the democratic process is (1)
Corruption in administration and (2) Unbalance in the social economy (3)
decentralization of power. But India has the talents, intelligence, morale,
and we are quite confident that India is not going back to the middle ages,
and it may be said that within next fifty to hundred years, India will
surpass USA if not China and will be one of the leading economical force, if
not the number one force, in the world.
Rajen
Barua
----- Original Message -----
From: Chan
Mahanta
To: Rajen
Barua ; assam@pikespeak.uccs.edu
Sent: Friday, May 06, 2005 5:12 PM
Subject: Re: [Assam] even if you don't like Hindi
films
May we take the above
statement to imply that so far as education system is concerned at
least, the Indian democratic system is running and kicking well,
and something which is less corrupt, and of which we should be proud
of?. If that is so, may we suggest that the Indians copy the
Indian education system and apply it in other spears also, like PWD,
ASEB, and others?.
*** That is an interesting observation Rajen.
I notice that you have this need to simplify things down to
the virtues of the existing Indian democracy as a solution for
everything. I understand. These are complex issues. Unfortunately
simple answers like you suggest don't have a history of being effective
--in any field.
I made the point to give an example of Indians learning from
others . One area is higher technical education, which it learned from the
west, mostly, and implemented their systems , generally effectively, even
though it has not been in certain aspects of it; for example in promoting
critical learning, doing original research and/or development, or in
application. But those are details.
The point I was making was that Indians did not have to wait
for a century or two to be at par with other advanced societies. They
learned it real fast and applied it well for their own use, in just about
a quarter century, if not less.
Of course the fact that they had a head start with the British
established system to begin with.
Funny thing is that these morally weak and genetically corrupt
people somehow rose to excelling in technical or professional studies
without bribing or cheating their way through all the way. Isn't that
surprising?
I am of course being sarcastic for obvious reasons. I don't
for a moment buy the notion that Indians are morally weak or genetically
corrupt or any such garbage
like we hear in this forum so often.
It is for that reason I believe that the broken Indian
governance, if overhauled thoroughly, adapting and incorporating the best
features that others have developed and utilized effectively , will turn
around the downward spiral it has been steadily going down in.
At 10:31 AM -0500 5/6/05, Rajen Barua wrote:
>If that is true, then Rajen will
also will have to explain how he for example had an education as a
world class engineer, right out there in Assam Engg. College? Or
>Kamal as a physician? Or APJ Kalam the rocketry
engineer?
Rajen
----- Original Message -----
From: Chan
Mahanta
To: Rajen
Barua ; assam@pikespeak.uccs.edu
Sent: Friday, May 06, 2005 9:29 AM
Subject: Re: [Assam] even if you don't like Hindi
films
>Now what
made the system USA system less corrupt now. Did USA changed the
administrative >or parliamentary system suddenly that we don't
see so much of such cases of corruption >anymore? I don't
think so. The USA system had been there almost same for last 200
years
One of the biggest fallacies of these arguments lie right
here. It is based on a profoundly faulty concept of how the US
system works and/or how its functioning has evolved over two
centuries. This is where the fault of the entire arguments
lie.
If the analogy is valid then it might or ought to take
another, at least, a century if not two, for India to have some
semblance of an orderly and effective democratic system. That would
mean Indians are unable to learn from others' experiences or
innovations, unlike, say Singapore, or Colombia, or Taiwan, or Korea,
or Malaysia. Or une willing to learn.
If that is true, then Rajen will also will have to
explain how he for example had an education as a world class
engineer, right out there in Assam Engg. College? Or Kamal as a
physician? Or APJ Kalam the rocketry engineer?
Does it make sense? You decide.
At 9:09 AM -0500 5/6/05, Rajen Barua wrote:
Umesh:
When I questioned the
system, I was questioning the system within the present democratic
system; definitely we are not trying to bring other system like
Communism or Socialism which you have correctly concluded to
be dead for all practical purposes.
Now, having said that,
let us analyze the whys and hows of the story or let us
de-romanticize the story and try to see why such a story would not
have happened in the West, and try to see if it was due to the
people or the administrative system here.
1) semi-literate NGO female worker
("Sathin") Ms. Bhanwari Devi, who was raped in her
village near Jaipur , after she called police to prevent
child marriages -- Nice plot for a story. I don't see
anything outside the human character so far either here or in India
. In this or any other country also we would call police to
stop crime. We have not stopped this type of crime here.
Crime occurs. So both India and USA get equal marks so far. No
win.
2) It was very sad to see my hometown's corrupt
police (including police women) and impotent justice and
city-smart, fame hungry NGO feminist women leaders -who did
nothing for her. Now here
comes the killer. After reading your views, the key issue is seem to
be "corrupt police" who did nothing and that is why she did not
receive justice. In this country also there had been
hundreds of cases where justice did not prevail due to such corrupt
police. May be in USA also such type of police corruptions were
rampant hundred years ago. I am taking KJD's words that people are
of equal morality everywhere in this world. A police in Jaipur
cannot be less moral than a police in Houston
say.
Now what made the
system USA system less corrupt now. Did USA changed the
administrative or parliamentary system suddenly that we don't
see so much of such cases of corruption anymore? I don't think
so. The USA system had been there almost same for last 200
years . Then what happened that people have gradually
become less corrupt and more dutiful and sincere so that we see
more and more of justice being prevailing in this country? How
the wild unruly west was brought down to bow down to democracy and
honor the democratic process? I think that is the million
dollar question.
Let us pose and think.
If we can find the answer, we can find what we need to do in
India.
Or in other words, you
need to answer yourself:
3) I think one day I might have to do something about it
myself.
What you would
do?
Rajenda
----- Original Message -----
From: umesh
sharma
To: Rajen
Barua ; assam@pikespeak.uccs.edu
Sent: Friday, May 06, 2005 7:16
AM
Subject: Re: [Assam] even if you don't like
Hindi films
Rajen-da,
I am not an expert in governance, but the only
"system" people generally talk about is socialism or communism
----which is a planned economy ----but that system has
colllapsed.
For every other kind of society, I believe, there is
the ideal of a welfare state (well I am getting confused again),
but individuals have to continuously strive to keep their heads
held high and those of their near and dear ones -- a govt
"by" the people as you pointed out.
The older "system" was th royal system --which
functioned as well as the competency of the kingship --but I guess
democracy is better or can be made to work better as citizens
learn of their new roles as citizens as time goes
by.
I am never good with the abstract - but here it
is.
Umesh
Rajen Barua
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Umesh:
Let this be
case for our study.
In this case in
your opinion, you see coward people, corrupt people,
dishonest people, immoral people or you see
something inherently wrong with the system so that if you
replace the present system with some imaginary golden system
everything will be OK as being claimed by Chandan repeatedly. If
you see something wrong with the system, can you identify
specifically what exactly is wrong.
Rajenda
----- Original Message -----
From: umesh
sharma
To: assam@pikespeak.uccs.edu
Sent: Friday, May 06, 2005 12:36
AM
Subject: [Assam] even if you don't like
Hindi films
Now, Ash as abused NRI wife
http://in.rediff.com/movies/2005/may/05ash.htm
'Acting on Faith' explores lives of three
women
http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/2005/04.28/11-faith.html
Hollywood based Mundhra's film "Bawandar-the
cyclone" - was about a real life, semi-literate NGO
female worker ("Sathin") Ms. Bhanwari Devi, who was raped
in her village near Jaipur , after she called
police to prevent child marraiges to take place in her
village. It was very sad to see my hometown's corrupt police
(including police women) and impotent justice and
city-smart, fame hungry NGO feminist women leaders -who
did nothing for her. I was in Jaipur at that time. He himself
is from Rajasthan.
I think one day I might have to do something about
it myself.
Umesh
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