And that is what is so annoying about this whole discussion. Only a
little factual documentation* exists about the whole issue. Yes, I have
seen a number of posts by the person you mentioned but dont recall/cant
find one like that. Here's a post from the same person
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.aviation.soaring/JQvuWQYd-9k
regarding the "rudder dropping off" a Puchacz, with later posters giving
a link to an FAA report which purportedly confirms it. Except the link
doesn't confirm it, no incident seems to exist in the FAA database now
and another poster said they were from the club in question and the
source of the story wasn't telling what really happened.
It's happening in this thread too, Derek said he recalled 26 fatalities
from Puchacz spin accidents and Bernard has talked about 26 fatal spin
accidents. Meanwhile has anyone ever actually seen the original list
which was being discussed in the mid 2000's?
*And yet another example. Bernard recalls Mike Valentine calling the
Puchacz a "widow maker". In my previous reply to Derek I almost made
mention of _my_ recollections of what Mike V said. Strangely enough, I
was at those instructor seminars which Bernard refers to, as from the
late 80's till about 2000 I was CFI of Port Augusta gliding club. I do
remember Mike V talking about the Puchacz and calling it an "honest
aeroplane". ie in the sense that it behaved in a text book manner, if
you mishandled it it would depart into "classic" spin behaviour and
because it was heavy it would take a fair bit of space below to recover.
Not saying Bernards recollection is entirely wrong either, we might be
remembering two different parts of the same elephant.
Regards
SWK
On 28/12/2014 10:41 AM, Mike Borgelt wrote:
I've never seen an official NTSB report on it but it was reported on
r.a.s. in a thread on Puch spinning after another Puch spin in elsewhere.
IIRC it was Cindy Brickner who posted that information. R.a.s. Is
probably archived somewhere.
Note also we've had one near spin in by two level 3 instructors in
W.A., reported here by one of them And a Puch spin in at Narrogin by
an experienced instructor with student from low level thermalling.
Maybe all the spin recovery training in the world is simply
ineffective when the aim is to prevent spinning in the first place.
Spinning is not a normal manoeuvre in soaring flight.
Spin prevention training doesn't seem to help much either, although
both are a good idea. Simulators may help but we have no information.
It seems possible that the real problem is that task prioritisation
has been incorrectly or not taught, including the ability to not get
distracted, focus on just one thing and forget all the others. It only
takes a few seconds.
As Alan Rundle once said "flying is easy, you can teach a monkey to
fly an aeroplane. It is the thinking that goes with it that is hard to
teach."
Mike
On 27 Dec 2014, at 10:05 pm, stephenk <steph...@internode.on.net
<mailto:steph...@internode.on.net>> wrote:
Mike,
you've made this claim before. I assume it is another incident, not
the Caracole one (because they weren't that high, nor were they ex
test pilots)
But I've never been able to find any other references to an accident
like this and the NTSB database only seems to show up 4 Puchacz
accidents in total
EventId InvestigationType AccidentNumber EventDate Location
Country Latitude Longitude AirportCode AirportName
InjurySeverity AircraftDamage AircraftCategory
RegistrationNumber Make Model
20040730X01116 Accident LAX04CA270 07/18/2004 Lone Pine, CA
United States 36.588333 -118.051944 O26 Lone Pine Non-Fatal
Substantial
N19SZ PDPS PZL-BIELSKO SZD-50-3
20040406X00422 Accident FTW04LA103 04/04/2004 Cherry Valley, AR
United States 35.370834 -90.750556
Non-Fatal Substantial
N18SZ PDPS PZL-Bielsko SZD-50-3
20030605X00794 Accident LAX03LA165 05/26/2003 Minden, NV United
States 39.000278 -119.750833 MEV Minden-Tahoe Airport
Non-Fatal Substantial
N503HC PZL-Bielsko SZD-50-3
20001211X10620 Accident LAX98FA235 07/17/1998 CALIFORNIA CITY,
CA United States
Fatal(2) Destroyed
N7215L PZL-Bielsko SZD 50-3
Do you have any other references?
Regards
SWK
On 27/12/2014 10:22 PM, Mike Borgelt wrote:
Well one was two USAF test pilot school graduates from at least 3500
feet AGL.
Mike
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