On Mon, 13 Dec 2004 20:38:32 -0800, Rich Ater <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Rich: > That's not quite true. You can do this by being critical of how > Muslims have interpreted the Qur'an. Gilberto: I'm not sure what you are saying. > What do you mean by "this"? Gilberto, > I think you probably have a good idea of what I mean by this, but for > the sake of argument, I'll explain further. By the above I mean that one > does not have to eventually criticize the Qur'an if one accepts a revelation > beyond it. Gilberto: I think you have to be careful about how you go about doing it. Bahais call their belief *progressive* revelation which strongly suggests that the dispensations of the Bab and then of Bahaullah are somehow deeper, more complete, more suitable, new and improved, or otherwise better than what came before. And when Bahais start to articulate how the Bahai writings have "progressed" over the Quran then the negative statements come into the picture. Rich: In the Qur'an it says that God gave a revelation to each of the > Prophets and perfected their religion. If this is the case then in becoming > a Muslim, and I mean a Muslim in the common accepted manner of > understanding the term, not its universal definition, thyen you must end up > > criticizing Abraham, Moses, and Jesus, (God forbid). Gilberto: I wouldn't want to set the prophets against one another. Their various messages are a repetition of the messages which came before. The differences are more "horizontal" than "vertical" for example having Friday be the emphasized day of the week rather than the Sabbath. The problem with those earlier communities is that the original revelation was no longer being faithfully transmitted. For example, I wouldn't try to say that the Quran was better than the original Gospel or the original Torah. I would question whether the texts in the current Old and New Testament really are the Torah or the Gospel. Rich: > You can do this by criticizing what > gets accepted these days for accepable Hadith, and you can do this > by looking at what has happened tp fiqh and ijtihad in modern times. Gilberto: Ok, I see what you are saying. If that's all you are talking about then that is a conversation which can and does happen within the Muslim community, in other words a group of people who think that the Quran is still valid and are not saying that it had an expiration date which has passed already. Rich: > Thiscriticisms are not just those of some Baha'is, but of some Muslims > as well. Read Speaking inGod's Name by Khalid Abul Fadil. Gilberto: Bahais are different because they think that the laws of the Quran are no longer suitable for the modern age. Abul Fadl is still Muslim. Gilberto: I'm not sure > what you mean. I think you might be agreeing with me. Ultimately, whatever > problems there are don't require leaving Islam. The fact that Khalid Abul > Fadl is still Muslim, and hasn't become Bahai teands to prove that no? Rich: > No. > I do not agree with you. I merely point out that others are grappling with > the unworkability of much of what passes for Shariah in the modern world. Gilberto: I think you are misunderstanding the point. Abul Fadl isn't just saying the Shariah is unworkable and then shopping for a new religion. He is saying that there seems to be this problem, but then as a Muslim, he is trying to help fix it. He is not just saying that Islam is over and it is time for something new. Rich: What I am saying is that religion > cannot be frozen to 7th century Arabia or to 19th century Iran. Gilberto: And what I'm saying is that Islam isn't bound to 7th century Arabia or 19th century Iran. Peace Gilberto "My people are hydroponic" __________________________________________________ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
