Dear Gilberto,
I really like the fact that you've provided Karen Armstrong's explanation of the account of Banu Qurayzah; I have a suggestion, though. We've long passed the line of scholarly debate and are into the realm of what seems to me purely apologetics, and under these circumstances, I think we can all understand how we'd ALL be self-serving (as you've identified some arguments). Aside from the fact that I think we're having a virtually fruitless conversation here, I just want to add that if we are going to include explanations of history so that we can better understand the circumstances in which the events happened (such as provided by Karen Armstrong), we should also be prepared to hunt down and find those same types of writings that help to understand the biblical accounts that we are referring to as genocide. I have a strong suspicion they're out there, though I don't, myself, have the time to hunt them down. I'm sure there are biblical scholars that can help us understand the historical circumstances that can help put the event into proper perspective.
The other thing I found interesting about the particular quote you provided is that Armstrong actually uses the phrase, "the harsh ethics of the desert," which seems to acknowledge that the ethics of warfare at the time (or, at that place) were in fact different there than elsewhere.
Just some thoughts,
Just some thoughts,
Ben
On 10/27/05, Gilberto Simpson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
On 10/27/05, Susan Maneck <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> "In this particular context, the way you are trying to redefine things
> is inappropriate to the larger issue. The issue of genocide came up in
> the contex of talking about how moral decisions can be made based on
> constant ethical values and principles. And in that context, I said
> that the Biblical genocides were clearly wrong."
> Dear Gilberto,
> I'm suggesting that your basic thesis is wrong.
What do you think my thesis is?
> The fact of the matter is that we dont' know much about which > ethical values have been constant over history and whether or > not the Israelites received a commandment to kill these people.
What do you even mean by that. If you aren't even sure if the
Israelites received those commands (which are clearly contained in
Deuteronomy) why argue tooth-and-nail that those commandments are
justified? If you really aren't claiming to know you should have said
that in the beginning.
> Nor do I think we can project our present day values back on
> Biblical times anymore than I think we should project them
> back on Qur'anic times.
I would say that a set of values worthy of the name "values" actually
*can* be applied that way. However, those values can be applied in
ways which are sensitive to different situations and circumstances
which may have existed in different societies.
> The truth is that our concept of what constitutes genocide has
> changed over time and by modern standards Muhammad would > have been as guilty of genocide as the people of the OT.
Firstly, you are still ignoring the point. I specifically explained
what I meant by genocide and what I am refering to as "genocide" for
the purposes of this particular discussion is different from what was
done to Banu Qurayzah.
Secondly, You are totally ignoring the explanation given by Karen
Armstrong. There are specific reasons for why the particular actions
taken against Banu Qurayzah saved lives. The basic principle, the
basic value which is being applied in that situation is the idea of
self-defense.
Thirdly, please don't ever ever say that you love and respect Islam
and Muhammad if you are going to equate Muhammad with Milosevic.
-Gilberto
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