Gilberto Simpson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
On 10/27/05, Hajir Moghaddam <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:
> Gilberto:
> No, I'm not taking it personally. I know I didn't do it. But style of
> your (collectively, not individually) seems like it is yet another
> example of how on the one hand Bahais claim to affirm Islam, > while at the same time try to delegitimize it.
> Hajir:
> Gilberto, you're not getting the point.
> We are drawing a comparison between the verses in
> Deuteronomy and the Qur'an.
Gilberto:
I understand that. That's what I'm refering to.
And from my perspective, there are significant differences between the
two which is what you don't seem to get.
Gilberto,
We get that you are trying to draw distinctions, but you are trying to draw modern distinctions and THEN paling before applying those same modern standards to the Banu Quraysh. By modern standards BOTH are genocidal.
Modern standards just don't work in this way.
Hajir:
> It is amazing that you are okay about making Christians look
> bad, but when there are similar verses it the Qur'an, you are
> quick to 'interpret' it away.
A couple of things. First, I'm not trying to make Christians look bad.
I not worried that Christians are going to suddenly go off on some
genocidal campaign against the Amalekites and Phillistines in 2005.
I"m just reading what the Bible says and trying to explain to you why
I don't believe those particular passages come from God.
Secondly, it shouldn't be amazing that I'm actually trying to make
sense of the Quran in a way which is applicable today. Why shouldn't
I? I'm Muslim. What do you expect me to do?-------------------------
Reply:
You can make the Qur'an applicable today by understanding that the times of the Prophet were different than the times of today.
As Susan pointed out: Is it correct to hang a nine year old girl for crimes in Iran today simply because Muhammed married one particular nine year old girl back then?
This is a result of trying to make the Qur'an the rule for conditions today. It does not always work and the motives of application can be suspect.
-----------------------------
Gilberto:
Thirdly, I don't think you individually are necessarily guilty of this
but I think this attempt to equate the Biblical and Quranic rules of
warfare strikes me as self serving.
Bahais tend to say, for instance that Bahaullah abolished "holy war"
but when I've pointed out that the Bahai texts which justify
"righteous warfare" Bahais are eager to try to seperate the Bahai
stance from the Muslim. (Some seemed even offended at the comparison)
Islam's rules about warfare are basically consistent with current
notions of "just war". While if you just read the book of Joshua you
would see how radically different the OT view was.---------------------------
Reply:
Righteous warfare is different in definition by Baha`i standards than "Holy War".
And by modern standards a united front against aggressors is morally correct.
The principle was well used in the original Gulf War and badly used in the Second Gulf War.
In neither instance were the individuals fighting the war aware of, or bound by the Baha`i concept of "righteous warfare".
---------------------------------------------
Do you believe it is valid to apply the Quranic rules on warfare today?
-------------------------
Reply:
In a word, no.
-------------------------------
Gilberto
If you want to do that, then you should explain how the genocides
commanded in Deuteronomy and executed in Joshua (among other places)
are consistent with basic rules about moral behavior.=========
Reply:
I do not know if Deuteronomical excesses were at the command of God or not. I cannot trust the chronicler in this particular instance. I think the purpose of the Prophet is to warn, and the chronicle cited WARNS.
------------------------------
Gilberto:
Don't just try to argue that the Quran says the same thing. Better
yet, justify the genocides in Deuteronomy in terms of the values
preached by the Bahai faith.
---------------------------------------------------
Reply:
Why???????
---------------------------
> Though Baha'is have our own Book, we still interpret the
> writings in all Holy Books in a positive light.
I just try to see all the books as they are. Positive and negative.-------------------------------
But you never change your point of view a whit.
----------------------------------
> It is unfortunate that your brand of Islam
> cannot do that, it seems like you are intimidated by the other
> Holy Books.
Firstly I don't have a brand of Islam. Actually Islam has very little
to do with this particular point. I was raised Christian and went to
church and read the Bible. And even before being Muslim, this was one
of the aspects of Biblical Christianity which clearly bothered me and
made me not want to be a Christian.-----------------------------------------------
You are Sunnah rather than Shi'ih which is a "brand" to some extent. By modern standards there is a lot of shock in the Old Testament in particular. Modern standards will NEVER gain an understanding of the Old Testament, it is quite alien to the standards of today. That's why Rabbis are scholars above all else, part of the training is to see with the point of view of then and THEN translate the principles to the standards of today. That's what a "teacher (rabbi)" does.
---------------------------------------------------------
I don't know where you are getting the idea that I'm intimidated by
other holy books. I love learning about different religions. In
addition to having read alot about Islam and mainstream Christianity,
I've read many of the non-canonical Judeo-Christian scriptures, the
Tao Te Ching, Chunang Tzu, the I Ching, books of the Buddha's sermons,
stuff on Zen, Bahai materials, materials on Santeria. the Upanishads
(although I! guess it was probably abbriged) I have the Bhagavad Gita
on my shelf (but I have to confess I've only picked at it)
> There is nothing to be afraid of, you can make positive
> statements about the
> Bible without undermining the Qur'an.
I think you are totally misreading me. I think there is alot of good
stuff in the Bible. That was the point I was making in an earlier
discussion remember? That there is enough of the Gospel/Injeel in the
New Testament for Christians to say that they "have it".
But saying that there is alot of good in the Bible doesn't mean there
is nothing bad in it. All I"m saying is that genocide is one of them.
Peace
Gilberto------------------------------
And all anyone has said is that by the standards of today the story of the banu Quraysh is an example of genocide. You can't judge it entirely by today's standard.
Regards,
Scott
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