The Baha'i Studies Listserv There are many religious Muslims who on religious grounds are critical of how the government of Saudi Arabia treats Muslims who go to visit Islamic sites.
On Tue, Jun 22, 2010 at 11:14 PM, <iskandar....@gmail.com> wrote: > The Baha'i Studies Listserv > > > > Well, I seriously doubt if the Saudi government, the self proclaimed guardian > of Islam, will permit me (a Baha'i), to go on pilgrimage to Kaabah, > regardless of the fatwa. Visiting the Kaabah, the tomb of the Prophet and of > His daughter, other historical sites and mosques in Medina and Mecca is a > dream of mine. I have a feeling it will not materialize. > > > Best regards, > > Iskandar > > > > > Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry® > > -----Original Message----- > From: Gilberto Simpson <gilberto.simp...@gmail.com> > Sender: <bounce-510666-2080...@list.jccc.edu>Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2010 22:43:45 > To: Baha'i Studies<bahai-st@list.jccc.edu> > Reply-To: "Baha'i Studies" <bahai-st@list.jccc.edu> > Subject: Re: Ablutions > > The Baha'i Studies Listserv > On Tue, Jun 22, 2010 at 2:23 PM, Susan Maneck <sman...@gmail.com> wrote: >> The Baha'i Studies Listserv >>> Based on what you said it doesn't even seem to be a Shi'ite issue as >>> much as an issue of 16th and 17th century Persia. Do you find such >>> teachings in the writings of the Imams? > > >> Dear Gilberto. >> >> Iran makes up the bulk of the Ithna Asharia sect. > > Sure. About half the 12-ers live in Iran. So therefore the rest live > elsewhere (Iraq, Pakistan, Bahrain, Azerbaijan, etc.) in places with > slightly different histories and political situations even though they > are ostensibly following the same religion. So if X happens in Iran in > the name of Islam, that is not enough to show that X is representative > of all Muslims or even all Shia. > >> Iskandar indicated that there were hadiths from the >> Imams regarding >> non-believers being najas but I don't know how >> authentic they are. > > You mean the same Imams whom Bahaullah called > " the manifestations of the power of God, and the > sources of His authority, and the repositories of His knowledge, and > the daysprings of His commandments."? > > >> What is indisputable is that these strictures have been > and currently >> are imposed on minorities in Iran and most Iranian Baha'is have >> suffered because of them, whether it be in the form of a young child >> not being able to drink from a drinking fountain at school or an adult >> not allowed to enter into a business partnership with a Muslim. > > I'm not saying that people aren't being mistreated. I'm primarily > questioning how the mistreatment is being framed. You want to blame > Islam or Muslims as Muslims. I would say that these sorts of things > generally tend to depend on time and place. > >>> So the discrimination and persecution that those Persians were >>> inflicting the Jews in Persia is definitely a problem, and they may >>> have even tried to justify it religious terms, but it has about as >>> much to do with Islam as Jim Crow-era segregation (seperate drinking >>> fountains, segregated churches, swiming pools, etc.) have to do with >>> Christianity. > > >> Those quotations focused on Jews only because I took them from a >> Jewish website > > You are missing the point. I'm not saying that it is "just" Jews. If > anything, it is "just" Persians (of a certain era). Maybe you should > blame the Safavids and their legacy instead of Islam. > >> but all non-Muslim minorities in Iran are subject to >> this treatment. > > In IRAN, yes. > > It cannot be separated from Islam for the simple >> reason that these strictures are based on rulings by the 'ulama not >> necessarily state law (although nowadays it is both.) > > I think you are mischaracterizing what "the ulama" are saying. And > they don't speak with one voice. Grand Ayatolla Sistani and Grand > Ayatollah Fazel Lankarani both explicitly hold that Jews and > Christians are ritually clean. And Sistani is basically the highest > ranking 12-er cleric in Iraq. > >> Now, if you want to argue that they are not Islamic in some ideal >> sense of the word, I won't quibble the point. But then we must admit >> that the 'ulama no longer represent real Islam. > > The opinions you are talking about do not even represent all 12-er > Shia clerics. Let alone non-12 Shia like Ismailis or Zaydis. And they > definitely don't represent Sunni opinion. Again, in the time of the > prophet, there were non-Muslims (Christians specifically) praying in > the Kaaba! > > Here is a fatwa from a popular Sunni site saying that one shouldn't > even assume that the BATHROOM at a non-Muslim's house is unclean. > > http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=1&ID=1366&CATE=3 > > Here is one saying non-Muslims can enter masjids, EVEN THE KAABA > > > http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=1&ID=5101&CATE=239 > > __________________________________________________ > You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:iskandar....@gmail.com > Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-510666-20805...@list.jccc.edu > Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu > Or subscribe: > http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st > Baha'i Studies is available through the following: > Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu > Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st > News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st > Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net > New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu > > __________________________________________________ > You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:%%emailaddr%% > Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:%%email.unsub%% > Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu > Or subscribe: > http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st > Baha'i Studies is available through the following: > Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu > Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st > News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/%%list.name%% > Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net > New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __________________________________________________ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-510671-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
