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That's still not a scientific logical test. That's spin. Have you tested any people with this test. What is divine knowledge? When Baha'is use the term it sounds like spin. The term Manifestation predates the Baha'i Faith. There's no such definition in other scriptures, on what a messiah, madhi, qaim, kalki, avatar, maitreya, buddha, saoshyant, shah-bahram, etc is. You're using a retro-active definition and a retro-active revisionist history. Do Krishna, Zoroaster, Buddha, etc. fit your paradigm despite being designated Manifestations. All Manifestations before the Bab, have been designated Manifestations retroactively. Most Muslims would consider considering Muhammad to be such Ghulat(exaggeration). Ghulat sects were people who viewed Muhammad, Fatima, Ali, Hasan, Husayn, etc. and their descendents/successor to be Manifestations. The Bab and Baha'u'llah changed the definition of a pre-existent terminology. Just looking at religious history will prove such a definition isn't what Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Zoroastrianism, etc. prophesized. Looking retroactively, you could impose such a view on religious history, but such a view actually has no basis in religious history. As well as discrideting people like Confucius and Lao Tzu even though Confucians and Taoists would argue otherwise. 1. Return. They don't use the explicit word return, but Avatar claimanits cliam an avataric lineage. Buddha and Boddhisattva cliamants as well as lama claim a lineage too. 2. Yes, they claim divine knowledge even though some less theistic tradition would use the word divine. Knowledge of various topics is associated with each claimant. The topic vary per each claimant. 3. This one is complicated. Some claimants do go on to found independent religion with their own scriptures while others do the same, but within the framework of an existing religion. I tended to look at Avatar and Buddha claimants recently rather than Manifestation claimants (ie Joseph Emmanuel and Jamshid Mani). There is a special noteworthy mention of Leland Jensen who despite claiming not to be a Manifestation, does claim to be the first two out of three. He claims to be the return of Joshua, Kalki, the knight on a white horse, the Saoshyant, Maitreya (as a bodhisattva-mahasattva while Bahullah is Amitabha ie a buddha), the Madhi, the return of Jesus, etc. A Manifestation of God as this doctrine is linked only to Bayaniism and Bahaiism. He claim to be the Baha'i equivalent of a Mujadid (reformer). ________________________________ From: Naison Jones <naistrada...@gmail.com> To: Baha'i Studies <bahai-st@list.jccc.edu> Sent: Tue, December 21, 2010 10:22:43 PM Subject: Re: respect for prophets was Re: Joseph Emmanuel The Baha'i Studies Listserv The concept is not that difficult. Do they claim to be the return of the manifestations before them? e.g. Christ Moses Baha'u'llah. Do they claim to posses divine knowledge? Do they bring a new set of laws and book? They must fulfil these things. Now Jesus may not have brought a new book but actually he did because he annulled certain commandments of Moses and reinfoced others. Funny story... Yesterday some Mormans came to my door and tried to teach me and they said yep they have this prophet who they follow whats his face, I cant remember his name and they wanted to invite me to their information night ( a bit like a Bahai does). Anyway I said ah so this guy is a prophet does he have divine knowledge and she said whats that and i said "He has to know everything". (eg Muhammad said the earth revolved around the sun prooving his divine source of knowledge despite people not agreeing with him). And she said. Yes he does have divine knowledge. When he speeks i can feel his words in my heart and they touch me. Pffff This is obviously not divine knowledge! Anyone with Charisma can do this. Anyway so they left and i said come back after new years. One more thing though. A manifestation of God need not prove they are one by showing you a sign. If you need a sign it only reflects badly on yourself. The main thing is investigate. On Wed, Dec 22, 2010 at 5:39 AM, Stephen Gray <skg_z...@yahoo.com> wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv >What is a Manifestation? A Druze, Ismaili, etc. would recognize that there are >Manifestations, but understand the concept differently than a Bayani or a >Bahai. >The Ismailis have Aga Khan IV. > > > > ________________________________ From: Sen & Sonja <sen.so...@casema.nl> > >To: Baha'i Studies <bahai-st@list.jccc.edu> >Sent: Sun, December 19, 2010 4:45:45 AM > >Subject: Re: respect for prophets was Re: Joseph Emmanuel > > >The Baha'i Studies Listserv > >On 19 Dec 2010 at 10:05, Firouz wrote: > >> This is the main issue you pointed out. Gilberto and indeed no Muslim >> could ever accept that there could be a Messenger after Prophet >> Muhammad, > >And yet, you did make that step. You should know personally, and you >can see historically, that many Muslims have made that step. Beware >of essentialisms (which is to say, prejudices) that lay down what a >whole class of people "can never do." > >The "recognition" (irfan) of a messenger of God (whether new, or >already socially accepted) requires something more than knowledge of >certain texts, or the ability to manipulate the codes of meaning to >come up with the "right" answer. It involves a certain personal >capacity which cannot be aquired simply by taking over someone else's >knowledge and arguments, but which can be developed internally. This >capacity is not limited to people of any one race or religion or era, >but it is very far from universal. Irfan is and has always been the >prize for those who strive for it > > >Sen > > >---------------------------------------------------------------------- >-- >Sen McGlinn http://senmcglinn.wordpress.com/ > > >Happy are those who spend their days in gaining knowledge, in >discovering the secrets of nature, and in penetrating the subtleties >of >pure truth! Woe to those who are contented with ignorance, whose >hearts >are gladdened by thoughtless imitation, ... who have wasted their >lives!"(~Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions p.137) > >---------------------------------------------------------------------- >-- > > > > > > > >__________________________________________________ >You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:skg_z...@yahoo.com >Unsubscribe: send a blank email to >mailto:leave-547810-1719008.2a3842ae5b2f7d34dd5fdfc724616...@list.jccc.edu > > >Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu >Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st >Baha'i Studies is available through the following: >Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu >Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st >News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st >Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net >New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu > > >__________________________________________________ You are subscribed to >Baha'i >Studies as: mailto:naistrada...@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to >mailto:leave-548341-2222932.41cdf54d4f0ecb51bfad2c42bd979...@list.jccc.edu > Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to > ly...@list.jccc.edu >Or subscribe: >http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st >Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - >mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - >http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - >news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - >http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - >http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __________________________________________________ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:skg_z...@yahoo.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-548402-1719008.2a3842ae5b2f7d34dd5fdfc724616...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __________________________________________________ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:skg_z...@yahoo.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-548524-1719008.2a3842ae5b2f7d34dd5fdfc724616...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __________________________________________________ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:skg_z...@yahoo.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-548580-1719008.2a3842ae5b2f7d34dd5fdfc724616...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __________________________________________________ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-548588-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
