Dear friends, Here are a few general statements to get the discussion going. 1. Men (will) make (false) promises, and even statements, to get what they want from women. So do women, children et all. 2. It can, and perhaps does happen ever so often that women profess/are in love or due to other reasons/considerations indulge in consensual sexual intercourse, but shout rape at the first signs of trouble. 3. It can, and perhaps does happen that men forcibly commit sexual intercourse but women do not/are unable to seek redress for the rape. 4. Both are vulnerable and both may not get justice.
regards, jagwant 919779450654 If we are not part of the solution ; We are part of the problem! To become part of the solution please contact sender. ... come let us participate in the new war of independence of the 21st Century, Join Bharat Swabhimaan to create a new Bharat. --आओ २१वी सदी की नई आज़ादी की लडाई में भाग लें, भारत स्वाभिमान से जुड़कर एक नया भारत बनाए. --- On Fri, 2/7/10, Nutan Thakur <[email protected]> wrote: From: Nutan Thakur <[email protected]> Subject: Re: Fw: Re: [bm] Molestation To: [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], "ROHAN DHARESH" <[email protected]> Date: Friday, 2 July, 2010, 8:28 AM Dear Friends, I would also like the discussion to proceed without being personal to any one. It will be good for the cause Nutan Thakur, Editor, Nutan Satta Pravah Lucknow --- On Wed, 30/6/10, ROHAN DHARESH <rohandharesh@ yahoo.co. in> wrote: From: ROHAN DHARESH <rohandharesh@ yahoo.co. in> Subject: Fw: Re: [bm] Molestation To: drm...@hotmail. com, ace1ni...@hotmail. com, adams.rocky@ googlemail. com, [email protected]. za, anne-ma...@psymed. co.za, death1...@yahoo. com, fcradvocate@ yahoo.com, fredsottile@ sbcglobal. net, fschuler2005@ yahoo.com, happychildren@ comcast.net, huffyhedgie@ yahoo.com, joakim.ramstedt@ gmail.com, john.fowler@ fathers-4- justice.us, k...@fathers- 4-justice. us, lamptr...@hotmail. co.uk, laos_newzealand@ yahoo.co. nz, mad-d...@ntlworld. com, mgspik...@aol. com, pnfree...@cox. net, rhf...@airnet. com.au, rich...@adams4858. freeserve. co.uk, prancnw...@yahoo. com, singletary.scott@ yahoo.com, taraly...@bellsouth .net, teri.sharedparentin gwo...@gmail. com, tr...@casema. nl, v.math...@bepp. co.uk, victimofbadwife@ yahoo.com, newageindian@ gmail.com, 498asentinel@ gmail.com, [email protected]. au, raavi_rochanadevi@ yahoo.co. in, nutanthakurlko@ yahoo.in, girikishore@ yahoo.com, mahek.m.shah@ gmail.com, jag...@yahoo. com, subhsaurabh@ yahoo.com, pushpasatyani@ yahoo.co. in, bharatudaymission@ yahoogroups. com Date: Wednesday, 30 June, 2010, 4:44 AM Dear Friends, There was a discussion on bharatudaymission between one lady called Nutan and myself about one molestation case. I had agreed with her on the issue of molestation. But then, some of her viewpoints clearly reflected the social attitudes towards men in today's society. So, I can't blame her for that. The following is the text that she wrote [In purple colour]. And, based on that, there is a discussion going on - another dispute between men and women. Please do contribute and write in your experiences. Thanks Friends, I present a live case before u. It started with my putting forth a small statement- ""A Lt General accused of molesting a Colonel's wife is thrown out of Army. Ye kya ho raha hai?" on the social networking site Facebook. To this there were different answers but the one that really stunned me was from a friend w...hose view was that- " No man can molest a woman , and that too a married woman of force ... NEVER , without her willing consent". He also says that - "I have always observed ... that this type of stupid behaviour is common in love affairs". It is this statement by an otherwise learned and sober person that I want to present before you all for discussion and opinion making. To me the person who made the statement is not important, nor is my idea to criticize him or to dissect his background. To me what really matters is the fact that even today, in the 21st Century, there is a male perception that goes on to say that molestation of a woman (particularly a married woman) is not possible (without her consent). If slightly extended this statement comes to mean that molestation, rape and such other lurid and heinous crimes against women are simply not possible as long as the women are not a party to it. Frankly I not only completely disagree with this statement but also find it absolutely sickening. And also terrifying. Terrifying because it is this kind of male mind-set that is responsible for many heinous and dangerous crimes against women go completely unheard and unpunished. What this gentleman is saying might as well be the mental thought process of the Judge or the Magistrate who has been given the responsibility of delivering Justice. And if the person has already made a presumption that there can't be a crime of this nature against a woman (more so in the case of married women), then one can understand what kind of justice is the woman going to get from the concerned court. We have seen the dramatic version of these situations in the celebrated film "Damini" where "Taarikh pe taarikh" could not give justice to the raped woman till the very end. We also know of such widely discussed cases on rape like the Mathura rape case and Bhanwari Devi case where victim had to pass through such insulting times even in the law courts that it led to great revolt and resistance by the women activists from all over India. But it seems that no change of law and regulations on Rape has been able to actually change the deep-rooted antipathy of this kind of people for whom women are nothing more than a plaything. If what these people say is true then what is the need of any law on Rape? Why have different sections on women abuse and molestation? I am not commenting at all on the case related with the Lt Genera in the Army where he lost his job due to the allegations made by a Colonel's wife. Each case is different and must be treated so. I also don't say that women don't feign wrong abuse. In my husband Amitabh ji's policing career, I have myself come across such cases where it was clear that the woman is making false accusations. I remember a case in Gagaha police station in Gorakhpur, when my husband was very new in the service and after a raid that he had conducted, the woman whom they had arrested with weapons had made written accusations of rape against 10-12 police officers, except luckily my husband. The matter got exposed within a day or two but it had given my husband a lot of mental harassment. But then to sweepingly generalize such a statement is really too much. In my opinion it shows the poor mental outlook and extremely biased world view of many of the male folk. It also gives the reason why still justice is being denied to one half of the human population in such a large measure. I as a social activist and a gender-rights activist not only strongly condemn such wrongly-placed mental outlook but also consider them extremely dangerous for the proper development and functioning of human society in a just manner. I know that such a statement by an individual is not really important, what actually counts is the overall gender perception. And this statement somehow seems to represent the same distorted gender perception Dr Nutan Thakur, Secretary, --- On Wed, 30/6/10, ROHAN DHARESH <rohandharesh@ yahoo.co. in> wrote: From: ROHAN DHARESH <rohandharesh@ yahoo.co. in> Subject: Re: [bm] Molestation To: bharatudaymission@ yahoogroups. com Date: Wednesday, 30 June, 2010, 9:55 AM Hi Rochana, I never said that women don't do anything in society. When did I say that? But I am saying that men don't have rights as much as women have in today's society - its female dominated because men are living in an illusion of power and women are living in an illusion of powerlessness. That has resulted in women cribbing about their so-called low status all the time and men just don't crib. I don't agree with you when you talk about "male-dominated society" in the past. Men always were the bread-winners. Today, men are still expected to be so. No woman will marry an unemployed man. That is the truth. Whether girls or matured women. Matured women are more after the money of the man; younger girls are not that inflexible. This is from experience. Yes, money is needed. But I am not referring to that. I am referring to the paradox of values in today's world. The same women who talk of Equality are not ready to pay the price of equality. They want men to still provide for them. women look for a good person if i am right u r talking about girls but not of matured women.money is needed for leading a better life but money is not life. Men also look for a good person. But how many women are ready to provide for their men? How many are ready to marry unemployed men? Every woman wants to marry a guy who provides for them irrespective of whether they are employed or not. This is a paradox. This is hypocrisy. who r treating men as ATM Machines. i too work for a company and making my bit for my family. did women made men ATM machines? long ago the male dominated society when u and i were not in this world ordered women to be in kitchen and men use to earn money for the family. even teh parents cannot afford for all their children education so only boy in teh family use to be educated to elad his family. at tht times also in villages women use to go for field works to earn for their family. The entire society treats men as ATM machines. Society - the laws, judiciary, govt. etc. The society still expects men to be the protectors and providors of women, and family. Where is the equality? How many women are providing for their families? How many women are paying alimony to their husbands? How many women are ready to marry unemployed men? When a man marries, the society asks him what he is doing. When a woman marries, the society is okay with her being a housewife. When a man commits suicide due to his wife, the society gives her compensation in the form of insurance or life savings of the man. If the woman commits suicide due to the man, the man is arrested for harassment. Is this justice? Is this equality? Women have the option to work or not to work. Where is the option for men? Men are legally, socially bound to protect and provide women. In the event of natural calamities, it is the men who are expected to protect the society. The list goes on.......... .... You working in that company and contributing to family is optional. The society will not expect you to do that. But for men, there is no choice. Lastly, nobody ordered women to be in the kitchen in the past. It is women who were happy to be in safe confines when earning money or providing was not easy. Providing involved physical power and strength. Danger from animals and nature was immense. The world was home to dangereous animals. Machines weren't around. Today, when machines have been invented and dangerous animals are no longer around, women suddenly want "equality" and are now blaming the men for "keeping them confined to the kitchen". This is betrayal. please do not argue regarding the rights of women and men, who is strong and weak, who is doing best to the society, who is sacrificing and who not? There is no concept of men's rights. hence one needs to emphasise on this. Nobody is talking about who is doing the best for society, who is sacrificing etc. That is not the discussion here. But yes, the attitudes of society, the attitudes of people towards men is on the presumption that men are stronger and hence they can commit wrongs on women. Therefore, to make an attitudinal change, there is a need to make society understand that men are only physically stronger. While women have other forms of strengths. Men also need to be sympthasised. that is not our issue. rohan if u feel that nuthen has written something wrong then point out the issues but dont say women does nothing in the society and men the one who is one and only running the society. right? I never said that women do nothing. I am pointing to the one-sidedness of Nuthan's ideas. She has only spoken of the outdated values of we men. She has not realised that these same outdated values are making men continue to protect and provide women and society. It is these same outdated values of men that are forcing men not to crib or complain about women. I am a liberated man. I crib and complain about women when they are wrong. I will continue to do so. (Please note: I will forward this email to interested persons for their views) Regards, Rohan --- On Tue, 29/6/10, Rochana Devi Raavi <raavi_rochanadevi@ yahoo.co. in> wrote: From: Rochana Devi Raavi <raavi_rochanadevi@ yahoo.co. in> Subject: Re: [bm] Molestation To: bharatudaymission@ yahoogroups. com Date: Tuesday, 29 June, 2010, 5:03 PM Hi Rohan, this is rochana. i agree with very few points made by u and let me clear that.... How many of the 21st century women are ready and willing to protect and provide men? How many of the 21st century women are ready to marry unemployed men and support them? women look for a good person if i am right u r talking about girls but not of matured women.money is needed for leading a better life but money is not life. We men are treated as ATM machines, money-making machines and free security guards of society. who r treating men as ATM Machines. i too work for a company and making my bit for my family. did women made men ATM machines? long ago the male dominated society when u and i were not in this world ordered women to be in kitchen and men use to earn money for the family. even teh parents cannot afford for all their children education so only boy in teh family use to be educated to elad his family. at tht times also in villages women use to go for field works to earn for their family. LAST BUT NOT THE LEAST.... i agree with u in points where * men also will suffer not only women and u said men dont crib. and later u r saying men is stronger than women so u may not crib. see men and women in everybody 50% they r good and the remaining they are bad as well. i am not saying that all women are good. because of bad men women are suffering and as well due to arogant and poor attitude women men also suffer alot. * i also agree that women also misuse the domestic violence act as a result a innocent men will be suffered. *as u said women crib so many legislations came into force. may be men dont crib so no acts. in one of the previous posts i have studied an organisation came up namely "meri bewi se bachavo" (save me from my wife) in pink city and many branches also opened near by. please do not argue regarding the rights of women and men, who is strong and weak, who is doing best to the society, who is sacrificing and who not? that is not our issue. rohan if u feel that nuthen has written something wrong then point out the issues but dont say women does nothing in the society and men the one who is one and only running the society. right? Regards, Rochana
