I'll roll it back and file an intent to deprecate thread. It was a big
mistake that I forgot to do that in the first place, and it's unfortunate
that we have to roll this back. But I take having reached 50% Stable and
only knowing for sure about Twilio as a positive sign (if this was very
widespread we would have heard about it earlier than we did). Still it
seems like Finch is a problem for Selenium test environments in that it's
possible to run test code for several months without noticing a feature is
on. That's a bit sad.
On Thursday, January 26, 2023 at 8:46:19 PM UTC+1 Sudheer Boynapally wrote:
> Is the experiment rolled back on January 25th ? or it is still at 50%
> stable for M 109?
>
> On Thu, Jan 26, 2023 at 10:47 AM Alex Russell <sligh...@chromium.org>
> wrote:
>
>> It appears this change is causing breakage at scale, including for our
>> partners.
>>
>> Given how this is going, I'd like to suggest the following course of
>> action:
>>
>> - Turn down the Finch rollout to 0% immediately
>> - Revert the change in 111
>> - File an intent-to-deprecate here ASAP w/ whatever data on compat we
>> can gather (as it looks like usecounters won't work) so we can discuss a
>> new plan to land this
>>
>> We have options that might be more suitable (e.g., reverse OT), or maybe
>> the change just needs devrel in wider channels + time to breathe. Either
>> way, backing off of this rollout seems like the right thing to do. In
>> future, web-visible WebRTC changes also need to come through the main Blink
>> intents process. Let's start down that path now.
>>
>> Curious for other API OWNERs feedback, so cc-ing
>> blink-api-owners-discuss@.
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Alex
>>
>> On Wed, Jan 25, 2023 at 10:04 PM Henrik Boström <hb...@google.com> wrote:
>>
>>> The track and stream removal experiment is at 50% Stable for M109. On
>>> January 23rd it went from 10% to 50%. The intent is to ramp up to 100%.
>>> Which experiment group you end up with (have or not have the deprecated
>>> stats) are chosen with a dice roll every time the user restarts their
>>> browser.
>>>
>>> In M111 (which is currently Canary) the removal is enabled-by-default so
>>> in that version there is no dependency on getting finch configs pushed
>>> anymore.
>>>
>>> On Thu, Jan 26, 2023 at 12:52 AM Sudheer Boynapally <sudhe...@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Was there any change on January 23rd corresponding to this? like
>>>> rolling out this deprecation?
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> On Wednesday, January 25, 2023 at 2:57:16 PM UTC-8 Sudheer Boynapally
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>
>>>>> Is the deprecation of 'track' and 'stream' objects completed 100% on
>>>>> all the versions of chrome v109 or any specific sub version of 109?
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tuesday, January 10, 2023 at 5:56:04 AM UTC-8 Henrik Boström wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Tue, Jan 10, 2023 at 8:51 AM Yoav Weiss <yoav...@chromium.org>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> +Henrik Boström - was there an intent sent for this removal? Any
>>>>>>> form of developer communication?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There was developer communication dating as far back as July but I
>>>>>> admit I had forgotten to send out a formal blink-dev intent to deprecate!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> - I should have done that.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The getStats() API in question is not being deprecated, but the
>>>>>> RTCStatsReport (an id-to-stats-object map) report will stop containing
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> stats object which were made obsolete in the spec several years ago due
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> the contents of these stats objects having been moved to other stats
>>>>>> objects that are still being returned. Same values, different location.
>>>>>> In
>>>>>> other words, the report is being trimmed down by removing duplicate
>>>>>> information. Stats processing code in an application is gated on stats
>>>>>> type
>>>>>> for knowing which metrics to look for on an individual stats object
>>>>>> which
>>>>>> should make this lower risk compared to other depracations. The
>>>>>> motivation
>>>>>> for this is performance optimizations (~40% report size reduction),
>>>>>> technical debt reduction (-1400 LOC) and web compat ("track" does
>>>>>> not exist in Firefox <https://webrtc-stats.callstats.io/verify/>).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The communication channel used was WebRTC's official google group,
>>>>>> discuss-webrtc <https://groups.google.com/g/discuss-webrtc>. History:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> - July 25, 2022 PSA
>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/g/discuss-webrtc/c/lfkFCY2CFco> announced
>>>>>> the plan to deprecate at a milestone TBD. This was also the time
>>>>>> where the
>>>>>> "DEPRECATED_" prefix was added to the JavaScript-exposed stats object
>>>>>> IDs,
>>>>>> which made it into M106. The deprecation prefix is also visible in
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> chrome://webrtc-internals/ developer page when a page uses WebRTC.
>>>>>> - There was another PSA on September 6, 2022
>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/g/discuss-webrtc/c/mmudYReualE> about
>>>>>> other stats news with a reminder of the imminent stats deprecation.
>>>>>> - The October 19, 2022 PSA
>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/g/discuss-webrtc/c/R7Mcux9RK6g> announced
>>>>>> "track" stats being removed at 50% Canary.
>>>>>> - The follow-up October 27, 2022 PSA
>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/g/discuss-webrtc/c/9c8ZjberEcI> announced
>>>>>> it would also be removed at 50% Beta (where M109 Beta was released on
>>>>>> December 1st). This PSA also clarifies that "The goal is to continue
>>>>>> ramping it up on Stable when M109 is released".
>>>>>> - Lastly we have yesterday's PSA
>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/g/discuss-webrtc/c/Bxrxr8gw08Y> announcing
>>>>>> that the removal was advanced to 1% Stable which this conversation is
>>>>>> a
>>>>>> response to.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Mon, Jan 9, 2023 at 9:42 PM Alex Russell <sligh...@chromium.org>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Thanks for adding blink-dev, Philipp. CC-ing the API OWNERs as this
>>>>>>>> seems related to a pattern of breaking changes without Blink intents
>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>> we've been informed of by customers.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Do I understand correctly that this deprecation is being managed
>>>>>>>> via Finch for 109 Stable?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, as to minimize risk of breakage the deprecation is managed via a
>>>>>> Finch flag, which is currently 1% Stable + 50% Canary/Beta.
>>>>>> To my knowledge, no issues have been reported since the rollout
>>>>>> started in Canary in November, 2022 or "DEPRECATED_" prefix was added in
>>>>>> July, 2022.
>>>>>> This, combined with the fact that apps usually gate on type, is why I
>>>>>> thought it would be safe to gently roll out further to Stable.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Alex
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Tue, Jan 10, 2023 at 12:34 AM 'Aaron Boushley' via blink-dev <
>>>>>> blin...@chromium.org> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Can you help me understand exactly which objects are being removed
>>>>>>> here? We rely on `RTCPeerConnection.getStats()` although we pass in a
>>>>>>> stream selector. We then iterate over the returned stats reports
>>>>>>> looking
>>>>>>> for ones containing the values we need.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The selector (be it an RTCRtpSender, RTCRtpReceiver or
>>>>>> MediaStreamTrack) continues to work, it's just that the report no longer
>>>>>> contains the removed stats objects.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Is this a removal of the stats objects that have the fixed ID of
>>>>>>> "track" and "stream"?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It is the removal of the stats objects where .type == "track" or
>>>>>> .type == "stream".
>>>>>> In the spec this refers to dictionaries RTCMediaStreamTrackStats
>>>>>> <https://w3c.github.io/webrtc-stats/#dom-rtcmediastreamtrackstats> and
>>>>>> RTCMediaStreamStats
>>>>>> <https://w3c.github.io/webrtc-stats/#dom-rtcmediastreamstats> which
>>>>>> are part of the "Obsolete" section of the spec. See RTCStatsType
>>>>>> <https://w3c.github.io/webrtc-stats/#rtcstatstype-str*> for complete
>>>>>> list of stats object types.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Regarding the track stats dictionary, the same metrics are still
>>>>>> available, but you have to look at the non-deprecated locations:
>>>>>> RTCOutboundRtpStreamStats
>>>>>> <https://w3c.github.io/webrtc-stats/#outboundrtpstats-dict*> and
>>>>>> RTCInboundRtpStreamStats
>>>>>> <https://w3c.github.io/webrtc-stats/#dom-rtcinboundrtpstreamstats>
>>>>>> dictionaries
>>>>>> instead (type == "outbound-rtp" and type == "inbound-rtp"). See also the
>>>>>> type "media-source" referenced from outbound-rtp.mediaSourceId.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Is there any more documentation I can look at beyond the 2 sentences
>>>>>>> above?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The spec <https://w3c.github.io/webrtc-stats/> as well as the
>>>>>> implementation
>>>>>> <https://source.chromium.org/chromium/chromium/src/+/main:third_party/webrtc/api/stats/rtcstats_objects.h>
>>>>>> are
>>>>>> good resources in general.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Aaron
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Mon, Jan 9, 2023 at 11:30 AM 'Philipp Hancke' via blink-dev <
>>>>>>>> blin...@chromium.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Henrik,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> while I understand that this has been ongoing for a while in
>>>>>>>>> Canary
>>>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/g/discuss-webrtc/c/R7Mcux9RK6g/m/KG8qe6AEBgAJ>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> and Beta
>>>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/g/discuss-webrtc/c/9c8ZjberEcI/m/wbdQr77VBQAJ>
>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>> a while without anyone raising issues,
>>>>>>>>> the timeline "tomorrow" (with ramp-up) comes as a surprise, in
>>>>>>>>> particular considering practices like code freezes over the holidays.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Can you explain why you think you don't need an intent to
>>>>>>>>> deprecate on blink-dev (cc'd)?
>>>>>>>>> (I agree they should go away but don't see a need for such an
>>>>>>>>> aggressive timeline)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Am Mo., 9. Jan. 2023 um 10:40 Uhr schrieb Henrik Boström <
>>>>>>>>> hb...@webrtc.org>:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> With the Stable release of M109 tomorrow, the deprecated "track"
>>>>>>>>>> and "stream" stats objects returned by RTCPeerConnection.getStats()
>>>>>>>>>> will no
>>>>>>>>>> longer be available.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> This is unshipped at 1% Stable, but it will soon ramp up further
>>>>>>>>>> with the goal of 100% unshipped in M109.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> ---
>>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the
>>>>>>>>>> Google Groups "discuss-webrtc" group.
>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
>>>>>>>>>> send an email to discuss-webrt...@googlegroups.com.
>>>>>>>>>> To view this discussion on the web visit
>>>>>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/discuss-webrtc/0ebcadca-6d66-4f7c-b7e5-d2ac707a6e84n%40googlegroups.com
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/discuss-webrtc/0ebcadca-6d66-4f7c-b7e5-d2ac707a6e84n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
>>>>>>>>>> .
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>>>>>>>>> Groups "blink-dev" group.
>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
>>>>>>>>> send an email to blink-dev+...@chromium.org.
>>>>>>>>> To view this discussion on the web visit
>>>>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/d/msgid/blink-dev/CADxkKiJ-vkiyVTH%2BsSNOjv67zx0p7qLra1ePdGJS3JW3GTzfKQ%40mail.gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/d/msgid/blink-dev/CADxkKiJ-vkiyVTH%2BsSNOjv67zx0p7qLra1ePdGJS3JW3GTzfKQ%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
>>>>>>>>> .
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>>>>>>>> Groups "blink-api-owners" group.
>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
>>>>>>>> send an email to blink-api-owne...@chromium.org.
>>>>>>>> To view this discussion on the web visit
>>>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/d/msgid/blink-api-owners/CAA44PQjegbaaorsT_r-iNtUAg2Gxa5f6WohHAaLeGw2tmBW%2BwA%40mail.gmail.com
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/d/msgid/blink-api-owners/CAA44PQjegbaaorsT_r-iNtUAg2Gxa5f6WohHAaLeGw2tmBW%2BwA%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
>>>>>>>> .
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>
> --
>
> Thanks,
> Sudheer
>
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