Thanks so much for driving the rollback and Intent to Deprecate, Henrik. On Tue, Jan 31, 2023 at 12:41 AM Henrik Boström <h...@google.com> wrote:
> Yes, the experiment has been rolled back on Stable. Note that users need > to restart their browser to get the new config. > > On Mon, Jan 30, 2023 at 11:22 PM Sudheer Boynapally <sudheerr...@gmail.com> > wrote: > >> Hi Henrik, >> >> Just want to confirm if this is rolled-back today at 9am PST ? >> >> >> On Sat, Jan 28, 2023 at 1:59 AM Henrik Boström <h...@google.com> wrote: >> >>> Hi Anna, yes the experiment is being rolled back to 0% Stable (it's >>> still 50% on Canary/Beta though). >>> The rollback has already been submitted, but unfortunately we must wait >>> for the next config push. I'm told this happens on *Monday, 9AM Pacific >>> Time*. Users will need to restart their browser to get the config. >>> >>> In preparation for the next rollout, I've filed the much needed intent >>> to deprecate here: >>> https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/g/blink-dev/c/NZVXsJQ7tV8. >>> Please provide input on the proposed plans. >>> On Saturday, January 28, 2023 at 12:45:00 AM UTC+1 Anna Vasilko wrote: >>> >>>> Hi Henrik, >>>> Just wanted to double check that the latest plan is to revert the >>>> experiment, correct? Asking because there was somewhat different comment on >>>> the PR here >>>> <https://github.com/twilio/twilio-video.js/pull/1970#issuecomment-1404596109> >>>> . >>>> At Twilio we really hope the experiment can be reverted asap given that >>>> it is breaking for our customers and their end users in the wild. The >>>> adoption of our new sdk release (with the above PR change) will take long >>>> time for most of the customers as they need to 1) learn about the issue 2) >>>> pick-up the new sdk version 3) roll out their applications with the new sdk >>>> version. For some customers it takes months. >>>> Basically the only way to really stop the breaking impact is to stop >>>> the experiment and give some notice and time to adopt the changes. >>>> >>>> I have to acknowledge it took surprisingly long time for us to discover >>>> this breaking change and act on it. Holidays probably played a role here. >>>> But we will do a retrospective internally to understand the reasons better >>>> and to catch such issues sooner in the future. >>>> >>>> On Friday, January 27, 2023 at 12:57:38 AM UTC-8 Henrik Boström wrote: >>>> >>>>> I'll roll it back and file an intent to deprecate thread. It was a big >>>>> mistake that I forgot to do that in the first place, and it's unfortunate >>>>> that we have to roll this back. But I take having reached 50% Stable and >>>>> only knowing for sure about Twilio as a positive sign (if this was very >>>>> widespread we would have heard about it earlier than we did). Still it >>>>> seems like Finch is a problem for Selenium test environments in that it's >>>>> possible to run test code for several months without noticing a feature is >>>>> on. That's a bit sad. >>>>> >>>>> On Thursday, January 26, 2023 at 8:46:19 PM UTC+1 Sudheer Boynapally >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Is the experiment rolled back on January 25th ? or it is still at 50% >>>>>> stable for M 109? >>>>>> >>>>>> On Thu, Jan 26, 2023 at 10:47 AM Alex Russell <sligh...@chromium.org> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> It appears this change is causing breakage at scale, including for >>>>>>> our partners. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Given how this is going, I'd like to suggest the following course of >>>>>>> action: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> - Turn down the Finch rollout to 0% immediately >>>>>>> - Revert the change in 111 >>>>>>> - File an intent-to-deprecate here ASAP w/ whatever data on >>>>>>> compat we can gather (as it looks like usecounters won't work) so we >>>>>>> can >>>>>>> discuss a new plan to land this >>>>>>> >>>>>>> We have options that might be more suitable (e.g., reverse OT), or >>>>>>> maybe the change just needs devrel in wider channels + time to breathe. >>>>>>> Either way, backing off of this rollout seems like the right thing to >>>>>>> do. >>>>>>> In future, web-visible WebRTC changes also need to come through the main >>>>>>> Blink intents process. Let's start down that path now. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Curious for other API OWNERs feedback, so cc-ing >>>>>>> blink-api-owners-discuss@. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Alex >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Wed, Jan 25, 2023 at 10:04 PM Henrik Boström <hb...@google.com> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The track and stream removal experiment is at 50% Stable for M109. >>>>>>>> On January 23rd it went from 10% to 50%. The intent is to ramp up to >>>>>>>> 100%. >>>>>>>> Which experiment group you end up with (have or not have the >>>>>>>> deprecated stats) are chosen with a dice roll every time the user >>>>>>>> restarts >>>>>>>> their browser. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> In M111 (which is currently Canary) the removal is >>>>>>>> enabled-by-default so in that version there is no dependency on getting >>>>>>>> finch configs pushed anymore. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Thu, Jan 26, 2023 at 12:52 AM Sudheer Boynapally < >>>>>>>> sudhe...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Was there any change on January 23rd corresponding to this? like >>>>>>>>> rolling out this deprecation? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, January 25, 2023 at 2:57:16 PM UTC-8 Sudheer >>>>>>>>> Boynapally wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Hi, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Is the deprecation of 'track' and 'stream' objects completed 100% >>>>>>>>>> on all the versions of chrome v109 or any specific sub version of >>>>>>>>>> 109? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, January 10, 2023 at 5:56:04 AM UTC-8 Henrik Boström >>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jan 10, 2023 at 8:51 AM Yoav Weiss <yoav...@chromium.org> >>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> +Henrik Boström - was there an intent sent for this removal? >>>>>>>>>>>> Any form of developer communication? >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> There was developer communication dating as far back as July but >>>>>>>>>>> I admit I had forgotten to send out a formal blink-dev intent to >>>>>>>>>>> deprecate! >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> - I should have done that. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> The getStats() API in question is not being deprecated, but the >>>>>>>>>>> RTCStatsReport (an id-to-stats-object map) report will stop >>>>>>>>>>> containing the >>>>>>>>>>> stats object which were made obsolete in the spec several years ago >>>>>>>>>>> due to >>>>>>>>>>> the contents of these stats objects having been moved to other stats >>>>>>>>>>> objects that are still being returned. Same values, different >>>>>>>>>>> location. In >>>>>>>>>>> other words, the report is being trimmed down by removing duplicate >>>>>>>>>>> information. Stats processing code in an application is gated on >>>>>>>>>>> stats type >>>>>>>>>>> for knowing which metrics to look for on an individual stats object >>>>>>>>>>> which >>>>>>>>>>> should make this lower risk compared to other depracations. The >>>>>>>>>>> motivation >>>>>>>>>>> for this is performance optimizations (~40% report size reduction), >>>>>>>>>>> technical debt reduction (-1400 LOC) and web compat ("track" >>>>>>>>>>> does not exist in Firefox >>>>>>>>>>> <https://webrtc-stats.callstats.io/verify/>). >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> The communication channel used was WebRTC's official google >>>>>>>>>>> group, discuss-webrtc >>>>>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/g/discuss-webrtc>. History: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> - July 25, 2022 PSA >>>>>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/g/discuss-webrtc/c/lfkFCY2CFco> >>>>>>>>>>> announced >>>>>>>>>>> the plan to deprecate at a milestone TBD. This was also the time >>>>>>>>>>> where the >>>>>>>>>>> "DEPRECATED_" prefix was added to the JavaScript-exposed stats >>>>>>>>>>> object IDs, >>>>>>>>>>> which made it into M106. The deprecation prefix is also visible >>>>>>>>>>> in the >>>>>>>>>>> chrome://webrtc-internals/ developer page when a page uses >>>>>>>>>>> WebRTC. >>>>>>>>>>> - There was another PSA on September 6, 2022 >>>>>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/g/discuss-webrtc/c/mmudYReualE> about >>>>>>>>>>> other stats news with a reminder of the imminent stats >>>>>>>>>>> deprecation. >>>>>>>>>>> - The October 19, 2022 PSA >>>>>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/g/discuss-webrtc/c/R7Mcux9RK6g> >>>>>>>>>>> announced >>>>>>>>>>> "track" stats being removed at 50% Canary. >>>>>>>>>>> - The follow-up October 27, 2022 PSA >>>>>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/g/discuss-webrtc/c/9c8ZjberEcI> >>>>>>>>>>> announced >>>>>>>>>>> it would also be removed at 50% Beta (where M109 Beta was >>>>>>>>>>> released on >>>>>>>>>>> December 1st). This PSA also clarifies that "The goal is to >>>>>>>>>>> continue >>>>>>>>>>> ramping it up on Stable when M109 is released". >>>>>>>>>>> - Lastly we have yesterday's PSA >>>>>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/g/discuss-webrtc/c/Bxrxr8gw08Y> >>>>>>>>>>> announcing >>>>>>>>>>> that the removal was advanced to 1% Stable which this >>>>>>>>>>> conversation is a >>>>>>>>>>> response to. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Jan 9, 2023 at 9:42 PM Alex Russell < >>>>>>>>>>>> sligh...@chromium.org> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks for adding blink-dev, Philipp. CC-ing the API OWNERs as >>>>>>>>>>>>> this seems related to a pattern of breaking changes without Blink >>>>>>>>>>>>> intents >>>>>>>>>>>>> that we've been informed of by customers. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Do I understand correctly that this deprecation is being >>>>>>>>>>>>> managed via Finch for 109 Stable? >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Yes, as to minimize risk of breakage the deprecation is managed >>>>>>>>>>> via a Finch flag, which is currently 1% Stable + 50% Canary/Beta. >>>>>>>>>>> To my knowledge, no issues have been reported since the rollout >>>>>>>>>>> started in Canary in November, 2022 or "DEPRECATED_" prefix was >>>>>>>>>>> added in >>>>>>>>>>> July, 2022. >>>>>>>>>>> This, combined with the fact that apps usually gate on type, is >>>>>>>>>>> why I thought it would be safe to gently roll out further to Stable. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Alex >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jan 10, 2023 at 12:34 AM 'Aaron Boushley' via blink-dev < >>>>>>>>>>> blin...@chromium.org> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Can you help me understand exactly which objects are being >>>>>>>>>>>> removed here? We rely on `RTCPeerConnection.getStats()` although >>>>>>>>>>>> we pass in >>>>>>>>>>>> a stream selector. We then iterate over the returned stats reports >>>>>>>>>>>> looking >>>>>>>>>>>> for ones containing the values we need. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> The selector (be it an RTCRtpSender, RTCRtpReceiver or >>>>>>>>>>> MediaStreamTrack) continues to work, it's just that the report no >>>>>>>>>>> longer >>>>>>>>>>> contains the removed stats objects. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Is this a removal of the stats objects that have the fixed ID >>>>>>>>>>>> of "track" and "stream"? >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> It is the removal of the stats objects where .type == "track" or >>>>>>>>>>> .type == "stream". >>>>>>>>>>> In the spec this refers to dictionaries RTCMediaStreamTrackStats >>>>>>>>>>> <https://w3c.github.io/webrtc-stats/#dom-rtcmediastreamtrackstats> >>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>> RTCMediaStreamStats >>>>>>>>>>> <https://w3c.github.io/webrtc-stats/#dom-rtcmediastreamstats> which >>>>>>>>>>> are part of the "Obsolete" section of the spec. See RTCStatsType >>>>>>>>>>> <https://w3c.github.io/webrtc-stats/#rtcstatstype-str*> for >>>>>>>>>>> complete list of stats object types. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Regarding the track stats dictionary, the same metrics are still >>>>>>>>>>> available, but you have to look at the non-deprecated locations: >>>>>>>>>>> RTCOutboundRtpStreamStats >>>>>>>>>>> <https://w3c.github.io/webrtc-stats/#outboundrtpstats-dict*> and >>>>>>>>>>> RTCInboundRtpStreamStats >>>>>>>>>>> <https://w3c.github.io/webrtc-stats/#dom-rtcinboundrtpstreamstats> >>>>>>>>>>> dictionaries >>>>>>>>>>> instead (type == "outbound-rtp" and type == "inbound-rtp"). See >>>>>>>>>>> also the >>>>>>>>>>> type "media-source" referenced from outbound-rtp.mediaSourceId. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Is there any more documentation I can look at beyond the 2 >>>>>>>>>>>> sentences above? >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> The spec <https://w3c.github.io/webrtc-stats/> as well as the >>>>>>>>>>> implementation >>>>>>>>>>> <https://source.chromium.org/chromium/chromium/src/+/main:third_party/webrtc/api/stats/rtcstats_objects.h> >>>>>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>>>>> good resources in general. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Aaron >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Jan 9, 2023 at 11:30 AM 'Philipp Hancke' via blink-dev < >>>>>>>>>>>>> blin...@chromium.org> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Henrik, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> while I understand that this has been ongoing for a while in >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Canary >>>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/g/discuss-webrtc/c/R7Mcux9RK6g/m/KG8qe6AEBgAJ> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> and Beta >>>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/g/discuss-webrtc/c/9c8ZjberEcI/m/wbdQr77VBQAJ> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>>> a while without anyone raising issues, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the timeline "tomorrow" (with ramp-up) comes as a surprise, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> in particular considering practices like code freezes over the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> holidays. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Can you explain why you think you don't need an intent to >>>>>>>>>>>>>> deprecate on blink-dev (cc'd)? >>>>>>>>>>>>>> (I agree they should go away but don't see a need for such an >>>>>>>>>>>>>> aggressive timeline) >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Am Mo., 9. Jan. 2023 um 10:40 Uhr schrieb Henrik Boström < >>>>>>>>>>>>>> hb...@webrtc.org>: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> With the Stable release of M109 tomorrow, the deprecated >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "track" and "stream" stats objects returned by >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> RTCPeerConnection.getStats() >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will no longer be available. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This is unshipped at 1% Stable, but it will soon ramp up >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> further with the goal of 100% unshipped in M109. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Google Groups "discuss-webrtc" group. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from it, send an email to discuss-webrt...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To view this discussion on the web visit >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/discuss-webrtc/0ebcadca-6d66-4f7c-b7e5-d2ac707a6e84n%40googlegroups.com >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/discuss-webrtc/0ebcadca-6d66-4f7c-b7e5-d2ac707a6e84n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Google Groups "blink-dev" group. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from >>>>>>>>>>>>>> it, send an email to blink-dev+...@chromium.org. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> To view this discussion on the web visit >>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/d/msgid/blink-dev/CADxkKiJ-vkiyVTH%2BsSNOjv67zx0p7qLra1ePdGJS3JW3GTzfKQ%40mail.gmail.com >>>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/d/msgid/blink-dev/CADxkKiJ-vkiyVTH%2BsSNOjv67zx0p7qLra1ePdGJS3JW3GTzfKQ%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the >>>>>>>>>>>>> Google Groups "blink-api-owners" group. >>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from >>>>>>>>>>>>> it, send an email to blink-api-owne...@chromium.org. >>>>>>>>>>>>> To view this discussion on the web visit >>>>>>>>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/d/msgid/blink-api-owners/CAA44PQjegbaaorsT_r-iNtUAg2Gxa5f6WohHAaLeGw2tmBW%2BwA%40mail.gmail.com >>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/d/msgid/blink-api-owners/CAA44PQjegbaaorsT_r-iNtUAg2Gxa5f6WohHAaLeGw2tmBW%2BwA%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>>>>>>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>> Sudheer >>>>>> >>>>> >> >> -- >> >> Thanks, >> Sudheer >> > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "blink-dev" group. 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