From: "Robert Seeberger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: Killer Bs Discussion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Killer Bs Discussion" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: Reviews for Mel Gibson's "The Passion of the Christ" Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 20:02:16 -0600
----- Original Message ----- From: "Travis Edmunds" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2004 1:20 PM Subject: Re: Reviews for Mel Gibson's "The Passion of the Christ"
Please understand that I am not criticising you, but the position you espouse.
I understand completely.
Do I think you are an egomaniac? Not really. I think you seem to be self-centered within normal parameters for an earlytwentysomething and not significantly self-absorbed at least AFAIK about these things.
That is such a generalization. And what it says, is that regardless of what discussion I'm involved in, my opinion is clouded due to my age; I cannot escape the generic disposition of creatures my age.
In other words, that's a convenient argument against me for present and future use.
> > > In any case, I also refuse to be dissuaded on this concept of good > >and evil > > > being an inherent part of our environment. > > > >No one is really making that claim. What *is* being claimed is that > >good and evil are part of the human social landscape. > > Well of course!! > > I'm not just claiming that God doesn't exist, and looking towards the > heavens and screaming my lungs out here. I'm not transfixed with trying to > prove the non-existence of God. Good heavens man! > > What I'm actually saying, in this particular context, is that regardless of > what one says, believes, thinks etc... the concept of good and evil hearkens > back to some fundamental belief in God.
Does it matter where a concept originates? Does that make it any less valid?
It matters when people hide behind the origin of a particular concept. That's what obscures everything. And many a time, it's religion.
And what does the existence/nonexistence of "God" have to do with the existence/nonexistence of "good and evil"?
You seem to filter the entire concept through a distinctly Judeo-Christian filter. Bhuddists seem to deal with the issue without relying on "God" as a fallback position or originating element.
Do you honestly think that I cannot see past the Judeo-Christian religious view? In any case I "filter" this concept through that view, because that's how this discussion started.
As for your above question, I think it was answered in my previous reply to your previous question.
> > Indubitably, good & evil are part of our social landscape. As is the concept > of God. But no matter how one looks at it, good & evil in whatever variant > may be dreamed up, has at the very least some fundamental premise, planted > firmly in the belief of God. >
Can you prove that?
I'll leave that question till the end of this post.
> > > >You wouldn't try to claim that Dean Corril was a really nice guy when > >he wasn't killing and raping little boys would you? > > He may have been. I don't know. > > How about Hitler? Bad man, sure. But being Human, do you think he didn't > have the capacity for love? For compassion? > > Lets look at what's backstage, behind the curtain. Too often we are content > to stare at the stage.
I'd advise you not to commisserate with serial killers or mass murderers. You will find them a disappointment.
Well, we certainly wouldn't be "birds of a feather".
> > > > >Or that Bob Hope was a complete bastard except when he was > >entertaining the troops? > > I had no idea that Bob was born out of wedlock. That bastard... >
Groan! :)
<lol>
> > > > >So I hope you can forgive > > > >us "old folks" for our impatience with your > >anti-authoritarianism.<G> > > > >Especially since we do not offer authority. We offer our > >experience, > > > >which I don't expect you to have any more appreciation for than we > >did > > > >when we were young. > > > >(It pains me to find myself preaching like an old fart)<G> > > > > > > There is nothing to forgive, friend. And quite apart from your > >expectations, > > > I do appreciate your experience. More so perhaps, than you may know. > >I > > > simply don't agree with you. > > > > > > And as for my "anti-authoritarianism", I think you have it all > >wrong. It's > > > just a by-product of me making the argument that I make. Of course I > >come at > > > this list with all the angst that is only proper in a hooligan of my > >age, > > > but I don't think it interferes with my ability to think rationally. > > > > > > >I agree. > >But I disagree with your hypothesis. > > > > > What?
Huh?
Could you explain "I agree. But I disagree with your hypothesis." a little more clearly?
> > > > > But one thing that stands out when religion is embedded in ANY > >discussion, > > > is some abstract concept of God. Regardless of the circumstances, > >God > > > factors in. Now I understand where you are coming from, but due to > >the fact > > > of divine presence being present in any semblance of religion, and > >you > > > saying what you are saying...well it renders the very use of the > >word > > > "religion" a complete joke. > > > > > > >I have to reject that. > >It sounds like you are saying that the slightest mention of "God", > >even tangentally, invalidates any argument. > >I would think that patently untrue. > > In no way, shape, or form am I saying that. What I meant was that, based on > what you said, the "slightest mention of "God", even tangentally, > invalidates any argument." > > I'm not out to disprove God or religion.
I'm not claiming you are.
>I just think it obscures some > issues, due to people reverting back into religiously dogmatic thinking. > Whether they know it or not.
Its your knee-jerk use of religion to refute the concept of "good and evil" that I argue against.
I don't refute the concept of good & evil. I refute it's origins. And if not from a concept of God (notice the use of the word "concept". It's my way of saying "Not just the Judeo-Christian God, but a universal concept of divinity/a creator/etc...") then from where?
> > > >I know I could be crucified for saying this but, .............. > >The existence of "God" may be an irrelevant argument because no answer > >to that question will change the reality we find ourselves in. > > > > The above statement does not speak to the reality/nonreality of > >"God". > >But it does say that in either regard we are still bound to the laws > >of the physical universe, and that in either case in social situations > >we are still bound by morality in its contemporaneous form because it > >is our nature to be social. > > > Oh you clever dog you. The above statement is your best yet. It may also be > your worst. Such an observation as you have made is perhaps more truthful > than the argument for or against God as a real being or as a concept. But in > stating that Robert, you have supplanted your own argument against me, in > favor of your own truth.
Actually it is yet another restatement of the same thing I have been saying in almost every post.
Actually, the tables have turned. You are now saying that regardless of whether or not God exists (something nobody can really answer), we are still bound to reality (which is true) and to our own morality. It's the morality bit though, that I have a problem with. Where does it come from? It's an age old set of beliefs, which has it's roots where? God as a concept. That's where. And that's why I have a problem with this dogmatic view of evil. Because we cannot prove the existence of God, and since it goes back to God, it has no firm basis. Of course the concept of evil is part of our social structure. It's how we define something that doesn't adhere to our own morality. But if morality, though being an important part of our society, hearkens back to God, then what does that say about evil?
-Travis
As for me proving all this, well I think it's quite evident. Don't you?
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