On Jun 23, 2005, at 7:04 PM, William T Goodall wrote:
On 24 Jun 2005, at 2:08 am, Dave Land wrote:
The most common is the appeal to anecdotal evidence: a religious
person did an evil thing. Therefore, religion must be evil.
One instance would be an anecdote. Establishing a pattern of behaviour
from many instances isn't. If religion is so good why is it so bad?
I don't think that you have demonstrated it to be so bad. As Nick
pointed out, many peoples' religious beliefs cause them to do good
things, even if their motives might still be questionable. And, as you
point out, some peoples' religious beliefs cause them to do evil
things, even if the connection is not as clear as you claim it is.
People do evil things. Some of them do evil things under the arrogant
assumption that they are doing it for God: we agree that this is wrong.
But the fact is, THEY make the assumption, and THEY do the evil things.
We might as well blame democracy for the way the current administration
is conducting it, or love for the way that some people abuse it. If
anything, religion is a victim of the people you delight in telling us
about.
I posted earlier about Bishop John Shelby Spong's "Rescuing the Bible
from Fundamentalism." You and the Bishop agree that some people do more
harm to religion in its name than good. In the case of his book, it is
their insistence on taking the Bible literally that undermines its
power for modern minds. The religion they seek so to promote is harmed
by their efforts.
I think I will enjoy it if you offer some evidence that religion
*itself* (and not some whackos who dress their wackundity in religious
garb) is evil. Something beyond "I said it, I believe it, that settles
it."
Correct me if I'm wrong, but you *are* trying to convince us (or at
least some of us), aren't you? We are (both patiently and impatiently,
in all our imperfection) attempting to encourage you to be more
convincing.
By the way, I hope you enjoy the cooling of my tone in this message:
I'm tired of yelling at you. It's boring for both of us and I can't
imagine it's a party for the rest...
You also frequently appeal to ridicule: you present religious people
as ridiculous, with the unsupported implication that religion is
therefore ridiculous. Of course, you are engaging in the appeal to
repetition: religion must be evil, because you said it over and over
and over and over and over and over again. But mainly, your fail to
state your assumptions. It's not strictly a logical fallacy, but it
does cause your argument to be viewed with suspicion. This is what
Frank Schmidt was trying to get you to do: to state with some clarity
and completeness the assumptions behind your repetition of ridiculing
anecdotes.
One assumption is that 'what is good' is a hard question to which
religions provide incorrect answers. And if people think they have the
answer they stop asking the question. And that's bad. And bad is evil
:)
Now we're getting somewhere. Your problem with religion is that some
people who turn to it for simple answers stop thinking. I am a
Christian who finds that practice just as disturbing and damaging as
you do. Well, maybe not as much as you do :-).
That's one assumption down. I think I hear a meaningful, if slow,
conversation starting. Thank you for entering the conversation in
earnest.
Would you entertain the notion that hitting the list with the same ol'
"religion is evil" formulation might be doing more harm than good, and
that genuine engagement on the underpinnings of your opinion might do
more good than harm?
Finally, it is clear from the energy you've put into it that your
campaign against religion is important to you. I see no reason that I
should dishonor that. But now that you've clarified one point, would
you consider reframing it a little, and turn your energies to flogging
mindless following, rather than religion? As others have established,
the evils you have recounted have taken place under other systems of
not-thinking.
Peace be with you,
Dave
_______________________________________________
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
