You write: "I haven't said that religious people shouldn't use public
facilities. SHOW
ME WHERE? WHERE? It never happened. I have said that a school club
shouldn't be religious. For a public school club to be religious breaks the
separation between church and state."
Show me where, just once, somebody advocated having a "school club" be
religious? Just once. Where?
It hasn't happened.
The original issue was having an existing Christian club use school
facilities with teacher supervision. That is not the same has having a
"school club."
And because the issue has never been about having the school set up a club,
then your remarks have been about banning religious groups from using school
facilities. And since that is absolutely a violation of the constitutional
rights of the groups (if you're allowing other groups access to the
facilities), then you are advocating making those groups second class
citizens.
I can't believe how unbelievable stubborn you are on this evidence issue.
Don't you friggin' read my posts? The evidence has always been there. Lock,
stock and barrel. I always quote back every word you write, in every post.
>From the first time this little tiff started, you're words where there in
all their blazing glory. All you have to do is scroll down. I've provided
evidence over and over and over and over and over and over. I've quoted in
in the body of my message, as above, and I've cited your exact points. It
would be humanly impossible to provide any more evidence than I already
have.
I doubt seriously you were "required" to pray at work. And there is nothing
stopping you from praying your own prayer during that time, or mediating or
shutting your eyes tight and repeat over and over to yourself "I don't
believe, I don't believe, I don't believe." Also, the work place is not a
government place (unless you work for the government, which I don't know if
you do or not), so the boss can pretty much do what he wants. He's not
infringing on your rights because you don't, in a private-work environment,
have any specific religious rights. At least not in the legal sense. And
note my remarks are focused narrowly on the religious issue; there are other
legal issues where statutory regulation makes a difference (such as sexual
harassment, where you have a positive right not to be sexually bothered at
work).
There would also be legal/statutory reasons that a boss could force me to
engage in any religious practice. If you feel you were "forced," meaning --
"pray or face some consequence," then you should sue. But if it's just a
social gathering where you could pray or not while others prayed, then your
offense is your own problem. The issue is really moot.
As for twisting my words ... you have a short memory: I pulled this from a
previous post that I haven't yet deleted:
"I've never said that anybody has suggested that anybody has said: "THAT
CHRISTIANS BE DENIED USE OF PUBLIC FACILITIES WHILE OTHER RELIGIONS BE ABLE
TO USE THEM." What I've said is that you and others have said, "Christians
should not be able to use public facilities while other GROUPS (meaning
secular, or non-religious) be allowed to use them."
This is my quote, with a direct quote from you (the part in all caps, which
you wrote in all caps), quoted in the middle. Now if this isn't evidence of
you twisting my words, then I guess I don't understand English. I mean, you
grossly misstate my position, and then say you aren't twisting words???
H.
-----Original Message-----
From: Beth Fleischer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 9:46 PM
To: CF-Community
Subject: Re: Church and State
> I find it the height of arrogance for you to say that "I took offense at
the
> grace someone led at our holiday party - I felt it should
> non-denominational." This is perfect evidence that you want to deny people
> their rights to practice their religion freely. If I said a public prayer,
> there is only one way I could pray -- as a Christian, otherwise why pray?
To
> me, if I don't pray in the name of Jesus, the prayer is meaningless. That
> is the very meaning of freedom of religion, that we can believe our own
> doctrines and practice them. But, oh, we must not offend Beth, because
she's
> terribly sensitive about these things -- if we're going to offend Beth, we
> better water down our beliefs -- because, gosh darn it, offending someone
is
> the worst sin of all!!!
So you find it appropriate for a supervisor to lead an entire department in
a christian prayer and ask everyone to please bow their heads? You would
agree that requiring the entire staff asked to participate in a prayer that
only applies to 2/3'rds of them is appropriate?
If your boss asked you to kneel towards the east before eating at work you
would happily do so? I am afraid I wouldn't - he is entitled to kneel at
the party, but I am not doing it. and I am not appreciative of him asking
either.
It is certainly not an example of my denying the rights of others to pray
that I took offense at something anyway. Where did it say I prevented
others from praying? Actually, MY RIGHTS were the ones denied in this
case - I should NOT be asked to bow my head in prayer at work. Period end
of sentence.
> This thing about evidence really gets my goat -- are you absolutely
denying
> that you haven't said that religious people should not be able to use
public
> facilities? Are you denying you ever said that? I mean, if you're
denying
> it, then, well, I'm wrong, you're not hostile to religious people. But if
> you are, then the evidence is in your own words. Because to deny anybody
> their fundamental, constitutionally protected rights is to treat them as
> second class citizens, which is a form of hostility. If you can't see
that,
> sorry, I can't help you any further.
I haven't said that religious people shouldn't use public facilities. SHOW
ME WHERE? WHERE? It never happened. I have said that a school club
shouldn't be religious. For a public school club to be religious breaks the
separation between church and state.
You are welcome to disagree with this statement. You are entitled to your
opinion about it. But you are not entitled to make slanderous statements
about my character and my prejudices. Especially since you cant' back them
up, AT ALL.
>
> Furthermore, I haven't made any assumptions. I have your own words to go
on.
> The evidence is plain and clear. Just read your own posts. Just read this
> post.
>
> Furthermore, I'm also irritated because I posted a rather conciliatory
> note -- as conciliatory as possible without retracting my opinions -- and
I
> expected that to be the end of it. Instead of taking the olive branch, you
> have chosen to continue this emotionally-charged debate with more angry
> words, words that are not substantiated by the plain evidence and only
> further enflame the situation.
Your note most certainly wasn't concilatory, You just changed your tune from
me being an anti-christian bigot to being an anti-religious bigot. I am
neither, thus I asked for where I wrote things that would make you say this.
You haven't quoted any.
>
> You're not going to bully me into backing down, Beth. No matter how much
you
> twist my words, I will restate my position over and over, whether you want
> to believe it or not. With each post you make, the evidence mounts as to
> your true feelings.
>
Where have I twisted your words?
I am not bullying you, I am defending myself and my integrity. HOW DARE YOU
ACCUSE ME OF BIGOTRY? How dare you. No matter how ridiculous your
statements here have been I haven't accused you of being a religious fanatic
who wants every kid to pray to jesus before class and learn creationism in
biology class. I haven't accused you of wanting to force your religion on
others. I haven't accused you of anything - I have asked for evidence of
your accusations of me. You haven't offered a single shred of evidence. If
I were like you - I would have accused you of all those things.
And where is all this "evidence" ? You haven't shown a single example where
I said anything anti christian, or nor have you shown where I said a public
group shouldn't be using a public building.
Quite frankly, your credibility is disappearing by the second. For a time I
gave you the benefit of the doubt, but at this point I think your a witch
hunter and this witch thinks you can stuff it.
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