> Good algorithms win over tin. I love that story, Bob. Not to mention the punch line.
Could you take a moment to copy what you wrote into the J wiki? …To stop it disappearing into the bowels of pipermail – and I'll promise I'll soon find an excuse to link to it. On Tue, 13 Apr 2021 at 18:17, Ian Clark <earthspo...@gmail.com> wrote: > Ah… PL/I. Spelt with a /I, not with a 1. The salesmen were most insistent > about that. > But no – I wouldn't exactly call it "unsuccessful" … > > Salesmen-driven designs invariably succeed at what they're designed to do: > sell products. That's not to say they always work. > > Back in the 70s when PL/I emerged, programming depts had two enduring > problems: (a) productivity, (b) recruitment. IBM salesmen sold PL/I (a > smash-together of Cobol and Fortran) on the basis that even your coffee > ladies could use it. So you could fire all your *über*-expensive, > *unter*-productive > ASM programmers, who were kept on-hand to fill the gaps left by your > Cobblers. > > (Banks and Insurance companies didn't use Fortran. Only engineers. And > serious math had no place in finance –haha! Why, accountants don't even > believe in minus numbers!) > > Product Test at IBM Hursley put together a tool called the Syntax Machine > (you fed it syntax and it spat out wffs) which they used to compile random > PL/I programs. They were then able to show that PL/I was hopelessly > ambiguous and inconsistent. As you can imagine they got bags of gratitude > for that! > > But some sinners are redeemed in their children. PL/I… PL/360… BCPL… C > (the software counterpart of the reduced instruction set)… > The best thing about C was its neat preprocessor. This enabled any fool > who thought they could do better to come up with their own language. > > Are you thinking what I'm thinking? J with a "C" preprocessor?… say, now! > > On Tue, 13 Apr 2021 at 16:13, 'Rodney Nicholson' via Chat < > c...@jsoftware.com> wrote: > >> And do not forget their efforts in software! They invented - and tried >> to inflict on everyone, including me - that incredibly stupid and >> incredibly unsuccessful language, giving it the arrogant name PL1. Having >> learned it at the University of Toronto, I discovered there was no place >> within hundreds of miles to use it! Meanwhile they ignored the wonderful >> APL, hatched in their own nest. >> >> Yes. You are right. Thinking about it, it is a bit strange that they >> are still in business. >> >> Rodney. >> >> >> >> > On Apr 13, 2021, at 8:56 AM, Ian Clark <earthspo...@gmail.com> wrote: >> > >> > >> >> >> >> They misunderstood the PC. They thought it was just a toy and ignored >> it. >> > >> > Not as I recall. Mainframe division understood it all too well. They >> fought >> > like hell in the early 80s to stop it happening. And to stop >> microcomputers >> > (the PC wasn't the first, or – as Bill Gates pointed out – the best) >> > driving out the IT dept from banks and insurance companies, the main >> milch >> > cows. >> > >> > Others in the company saw the victory of micros as inevitable, and >> wanted a >> > slice of the action. So they set up Boca Raton behind a Chinese Wall. I >> > think their battle cry was: No EBCDIC! >> > >> > The counter-arguments were quite persuasive (e.g. dispersal of the >> > expertise concentrated in IT depts, so employees would get all these >> > wonderful PCs but never learn how to use them) - but not persuasive >> enough, >> > and their shock-horror projections all came to pass. >> > >> > Including the ill effects for customers. Wall-to-wall Excel has not >> been an >> > unmitigated success. >> > >> > As for what happened next, I recommend Lou Gerstner's book: *Who Says >> > Elephants Can't Dance?* Every old-school IBMer's darkest nightmare: a >> > customer takeover. Lou even got IBM selling chips as a commodity. >> > >> > Well… you don't get rich selling clothes-pegs to gypsies. >> > >> >> On Tue, 13 Apr 2021 at 13:59, Don Guinn <dongu...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> >> >> They misunderstood the PC. They thought it was just a toy and ignored >> it. >> >> >> >>> On Mon, Apr 12, 2021, 7:09 PM Björn Helgason <gos...@gmail.com> >> wrote: >> >>> >> >>> When i was a product manager there I was told that when we wanted to >> sell >> >>> something the selling price should deliver at least 10 times more than >> >>> cost. >> >>> >> >>> Less than that they were not interested. >> >>> >> >>> We are not in the fingers and toes business I was told. >> >>> >> >>> That was 30 years ago. >> >>> >> >>> They have been going downhill ever since I left. >> >>> >> >>> Þann mán., 12. apr. 2021, 18:25 'Rodney Nicholson' via Chat skrifaði < >> >>> c...@jsoftware.com>: >> >>> >> >>>> “ 13 layers of managers.” >> >>>> >> >>>> The explanation of their survival is, I believe, their huge profit >> >>>> margins. >> >>>> >> >>>> I still recall when they got a contract to electronically handle the >> >>>> Toronto Stock Exchange trading system where they charged $18 per >> >>>> transaction. Their cost of course was just a few electrons per >> >>> transaction. >> >>>> >> >>>> They were in effect a monopoly at the time. And monopolies always >> >> waste >> >>>> huge quantities of resources, accordingly reducing everone’s living >> >>>> standards. >> >>>> >> >>>> Rodney. >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>> On Apr 12, 2021, at 10:15 AM, Björn Helgason <gos...@gmail.com> >> >> wrote: >> >>>>> >> >>>>> apl lives on even if ibm goes away. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> it is really amazing that ibm is still around. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> 13 layers of managers. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Þann mán., 12. apr. 2021, 13:51 Raul Miller skrifaði < >> >>>> rauldmil...@gmail.com >> >>>>>> : >> >>>>> >> >>>>>> That's disappointing. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Not surprising -- just disappointing. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Still, there's J, there's Dyalog APL, there's GNU APL, and there's >> k >> >>>> and q. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Not to mention various hardware array concepts, such as greenarrays >> >>> and >> >>>>>> gpus. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> And, maybe, IBM will go back up at some point? >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Who knows... >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> -- >> >>>>>> Raul >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>>> On Mon, Apr 12, 2021 at 5:05 AM Björn Helgason <gos...@gmail.com> >> >>>> wrote: >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> https://www.ibm.com/support/pages/apl2-whats-new >> >>>>>>> >> >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >>>>>>> For information about J forums see >> >>> http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm >> >>>>>> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >>>>>> For information about J forums see >> >>> http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm >> >>>>>> >> >>>>> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >>>>> For information about J forums see >> >> http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm >> >>>> >> >>>> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >>>> For information about J forums see >> http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm >> >>>> >> >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >>> For information about J forums see >> http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm >> >>> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm >> >> >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm
