>Howard,
>
>>Things like abstract algebra (especially graph theory), principles of
>>real-time operating systems, queueing theory, etc., are all directly
>>relevant. Reading and understanding the Routing Policy Specification
>>Language needs a good background in programming language and
>>abstractions including object orientation.
>
>i was not a computer science major, but i do have a good practical
>handle on networking, protocols, and security and i have several
>networking certs. how can i develop my skills to reach the level in
>which i can tackle large scale architecture projects.
When I started things, the academic programs weren't there. They are
today, and graduate-level courses CAN be relevant -- they may not.
I've written several books on design, and Wiley's Networking Council
series primarily focuses on network architecture. Priscilla's book.
Track the IETF and NANOG mailing lists. Participate in professional
societies such as ACM and IEEE.
It's worth looking occasionally at some of the technology-oriented
business press (e.g., Business Week, Harvard Business Review,
Business Communications Week). Subscribe to all the free trade
magazines and newspapers available -- eventually you will find what
is useful and what is not.
Be sure you have strong spoken and written communications skills; you
will have to interview people.
Know what you don't know. Know that many technical disciplines, not
just networking, require lots of theoretical background. By way of
analogy, I have little problem dealing with my physicians, because I
speak with them as a peer that understands the basic science
underlying the discussion.
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Howard C. Berkowitz [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
>Sent: Friday, February 23, 2001 2:33 PM
>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Subject: Re: CCIE salary
>
>
>>In my opinion, CCIE is a test of ability of learning and using knowledge,
>>not a test of knowledge itself.
>>
>>No matter a CCIE or not, you can be an expert in Wireless or Optical or
>>other arena, because you have been working on those stuff for a while and
>>you are following it. No body compares a ISP senior engineer who has no
>>certification to CCIE working in enterprise his/her whole life. But in my
>>mind as long as that guy is an CCIE, he should have no problem picking up
>>the job of the ISP senior engineer giving a short time.
>>
>>Jack
>
>
>Jack,
>
>True, I'm not a formal CCIE (and consciously do not intend to go
>through the lab because I don't want to conflict with Cisco NDAs),
>although I was CCSI-certified in the Old Days, when the testing
>(pre-1995) was comparable, IMHO, to the current CCIE program. I have
>a reasonably solid computer science background (again, was in the
>field prior to their being graduate degrees in it), and am currently
>working on a book on ISP engineering, having written seveal related
>books. These days, my work includes designing router products for
>ISP applications. I've written or contributed to several RFCs and
>Internet Drafts, including a current draft on single router BGP
>convergence time, the next draft of which (to be posted next week)
>will reflect the thinking of several vendors.
>
>I can only say that it took me several years to get to a point where
>I feel comfortable in large-scale ISP architecture and engineering,
>starting with a solid software and theoretical background. Things
>like abstract algebra (especially graph theory), principles of
>real-time operating systems, queueing theory, etc., are all directly
>relevant. Reading and understanding the Routing Policy Specification
>Language needs a good background in programming language and
>abstractions including object orientation.
>
>In short, don't plan on walking into a major ISP and assuming a CCIE
>is anything more than a very minimal indication that you might be
>able to learn. No one is going to put you into a senior engineering
>position unless you have lots of knowledge that is not covered by
>the CCIE program.
>
>By "engineering," I don't mean third-level support. I mean deciding
>peering policy, finding performance problems, designing and
>implementing QoS, working out the relationships among IGPs, BGP, and
>MPLS, and coming up with responses to hacking attacks (especially
>distributed).
>
>There is a reason that computer science programs have not been
>supplanted by the CCIE program.
>
>>
>>
>>""Mark Holloway"" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
>>006d01c09dc7$4e10caf0$111fea18@platypus">news:006d01c09dc7$4e10caf0$111fea18@platypus...
>>> At Sprint we have a few CCIEs.. But not as many as you think - and we are
>>> the #1 reseller of Cisco equipment in the U.S.. I have put my CCIE on hold
>>> for now, since I know what CCIEs in Las Vegas earn versus what I make now.
>>> The problem is that in the real world, people start to become specialists,
>>> and my job title has me working in the field of IP Telephony as well as
>>> 802.11b WLANs. So, getting my CCIE right now won't do much. I may go for
>>> the CCIE Design later this year. But I recently left my old employer as a
>>> "Network Engineer" (designing/merging/expanding our network and
>>> troublshoting problems) and recently started at Sprint Long Distance doing
>>> Pre-Sales Engineering in 5 different states. My product range is: Nortel
>>> PBXs, Nortel Routers/Switches (there are more our there than you think!),
>>> Cisco AVVID product line, and Aironet product line. I've had experience
>>> with VoATM and VoFR at my last job, setting up tie lines from PBX to PBX
>>> over the WAN. IP Phones are new to me, but I'll be traveling to Ontario,
>>> Canada, to play at Nortel, and flying to North Carolina to play in
>>Sprint's
>>> AVVID lab .. oh yea, I'm going to some Cisco IP Telephony/Call Center
>>> training too. :-)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Peter Van Oene" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>> Sent: Friday, February 23, 2001 9:47 AM
>> > Subject: Re: CCIE salary
>>>
>>>
>>> > The CCIE program does little to develop the skill set of a pure IP
>>> engineer in a ISP environment. CCIE has little bearing in my opinion when
>>> candidate are interviewed for senior IP architectural positions. CCIE is
>>> really an enterprise discipline.
>>> >
>>> > Pete
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > *********** REPLY SEPARATOR ***********
>>> >
>>> > On 2/23/2001 at 9:20 AM Drew Simonis wrote:
>>> >
>>> > >Brian wrote:
>>> > >>
>>> > >> This really isn't true. Lets look at some basic facts:
>>> > >>
>>> > >> There are only ~6000 or so CCIE's in the world, possibly as many as
>>30%
>>> > >> are employed by cisco.
>>> > >>
>>> > >> There are over 6000 ISP's in the US alone.
>>> > >>
>>> > >> There are over 7000 AS's in the world.
>>> > >>
>>> > >> My point is, that if most of your CCIE's work for cisco and big big
>>> > >> companies, then their are a ton of networks, complex networks, that
>>> don't
>>> > >> even have CCIE's at the healm. Even a large company like UUnet may
>>> only
>>> > >> have a handfull of CCIE's.
>>> > >>
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > >Also take into account the large number of CCIE's who make their
>>> > >wages at training companies, and who aren't in the field. I know
>>> > >that when I was with IBM Global Network Services, we had just 2
>>> > >that I knew of...
>>> > >
>>> > >_________________________________
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>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
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>>> _________________________________
>>> FAQ, list archives, and subscription info:
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>>
>>
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