I know CCIE's who aren't just sitting on their duffs collecting a paycheck -
they're still designing, troubleshooting, configuring, and doing exactly
what they did before they received their certifications (the folks in the
Cisco TAC for example, and Cisco SE's, and reseller SE's, and Lucent NetCare
engineeers, and engineers at other large IT consulting shops, etc.). CCIE
doesn't make one a god. It makes one a CCIE.
The main difference between the Bachelors Degree and the various trade
certifications is that receiving a college degree, most employers ASSUME
that the employee is green, but has developed both the work ethic (usually
developed from 4 or more years of disciplined self-motivated study). The
various trade certifications, if I were an employer, would ASSUME that the
applicant has achieved the certification based on a combination of study and
work experience in that specific certification area.
An observation that I'll make on this entire certification process - some of
us use it as a means to demonstrate the knowledge that we have and become
recognized for it. Others of us use it as a stepping stone or tool to get a
better position (or a position period) within the industry. I see value in
both approaches. ANYTHING that adds knowledgeable people to our (sometimes
clueless) industry is greatly appreciated. (As an aside, an MCSE that I
work with, who is now a Unix sysadmin, completed his CCNA exam on Friday in
25 minutes, and passed. My kudos to him)
-e-
----- Original Message -----
From: nrf
To:
Sent: Monday, July 02, 2001 1:20 AM
Subject: Re: Cisco Certifications still worth anything? [7:10599]
> I first have to say that I agree with you in that I find very few CCIE's
> actually performing gritty hands-on work. So then you are probably
> wondering what is the whole point of working on your configuration and
> troubleshooting skills to become a CCIE, only to then become shunted into
a
> position where those skills are rarely used? I have also thought long and
> hard about this phenomena.
>
>
> OK, I'm going to open a can of worms here, and go off on a bit of a
tangent,
> but just bear with me. I believe that criticisms of the utility of
industry
> certifications could also be said about the college degree. Sure, CCIE's
> are routinely put into high-level positions that involve little of the
> hands-on configuring and troubleshooting that is the very heart of the
CCIE.
> But as we all know, many companies have positions that require job
> candidates to have a degree, but few of those positions actually require
> the knowledge of the exact subjects people learn in college. Would-be
> flamers, hear me out.
>
> Consider the average bachelor's degree. If it is in the humanities, you
> spent quite a bit of time studying various authors or artists, writing
> papers on literary and artistic criticism (the who, the what and the why
of
> the artist/author and his work) and being exposed to various cultural
> schools of thought. If it was in a social science, then you most likely
> studied a lot of socio/political/economic theory and their application.
If
> you studied a science or engineering, then high-level calculus was the
> order of the day, in terms of expressing events in mathematical terms. If
> it was computer science, then a whole lot of abstract programming theory.
>
> But regardless of what you studied, I think it is universally true that
> college graduates with whatever degree then plunge into their careers and
> rarely use the actual skills that they picked up in college. Barring
those
> who have entered academia, how many times does the typical grad with an
> English degree get the opportunity to do an literary analysis of
Elizabeth
> vs. Victorian poetry? How many real-world graduates of economics, in
their
> day-to-day working life, actually have to whip out supply/demand curves
and
> calculate marginal utility? Even the engineering graduates (historically
> one of the most applied of all the college subjects), how many times do
they
> really have to derive out a 40-line thermodynamics multivariable calculus
> formula using just pencil and paper, and within 15 minutes?
>
> Ah but, college administrators and the pundits of education will stress,
> what make the college experience so valuable is not the subject matter
per
> se, but rather the base level disciplining and training of the mind that
is
> the ultimate goal. It is not the memorization of the political theories
of
> Plato that is important, rather it is the improved cultural exposure, the
> openness to different philosophies, and the ability to conceive of and
> defend a particular thought. It is not the ability to quickly derive and
> calculate the eigenvectors of a linear algebra matrix that is important,
> rather it is the improved grasp and understanding of abstract concepts
that
> is the real prize. In short, you college grads are hired not for the
> precise subject matter that they studied, but because they have
demonstrated
> enhanced thought processes and the ability to quickly learn whatever
skills
> they need for their career.
>
> Having said that, I believe that the CCIE is evolving into a similar role.
> CCIE's are prized by employers not because they can type a config for and
> troubleshoot a OSPF NBMA frame-relay network without using subinterfaces
and
> while still electing a DR/BDR in less than an hour, typing at 150
> words-per-minute. Rather they are prized because in the course of their
> study, they have substantially improved their knowledge of networking
> fundamentals and have developed a systematic and logical method of fixing
> problems.
>
> Now, some readers out there might take exception to the above paragraph
and
> point out that there are some CCIE's who have developed more than a
> superficial knowledge of networking, and obtained their 4-digit-number
just
> by memorizing a whole bunch of CCO configs. Of course I'm sure that has
> happened.
>
> Yet the same thing also happens with the college degree, but you hardly
ever
> hear anybody complain about that. I think everybody college graduate has
a
> story about somebody they knew who was admitted just because he could
play
> a sport, or because Daddy donated a lot of money, or something like that.
> Then that person deliberately searched for and enrolled in the easiest
> possible subjects and undertook the easiest possible coursework (have you
> ever noticed how Division 1 college football and basketball players always
> seem to major in things like mass communications or hotel management?).
But
> they graduate just like everybody else.
>
> And, on another tangent, I have noticed lots of people complain
incessantly
> about the paper certificate - the paper MCSE, the paper CCNA, the paper
> ABCDEFG. Yet, it seems to me that there is also such a thing as a paper
> college degree, but nobody ever seems to complain about that.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ""NY50TT"" wrote in message
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > Well here's a thread certain to start a fire, but I thought I'd see what
> > would happen.
> >
> > Does the community feel that Cisco Certifications are still in demand in
> the
> > market place? Do they still get you through the door in anything?
> >
> > I have been in the IT field for the better part of 8 years. This year,
I
> > will be pulling in about 5K short of 100K, and I have a very short list
of
> > certifications which I rarely use in the network security and
development
> > position I'm in. I work for a very large, if not the largest IT shop in
> the
> > world, and I am a little disoriented by what is seen as really important
> > inside this organization. I have some level of respect for this
> > organization because of it's sheer size and some of the industry giants
> and
> > experts I work on teams with. However it doesn't seem that
certification
> > matters. All of the top tier architects, the "Gods" of the "Gods" are
> all
> > undoubtedly very good at what they do, and rumor has it they are paid
> > handsomely(much more than me), but a quick direct survey of these rather
> > humble people, and I find that they have just been around for forever
and
> > seem to know near everything, especially about the business aspect of
> > things, but don't carry any certifications that some deem so important
to
> > get(though I have no doubt they would pass if they were forced to take
the
> > tests). Yet they are crucial to the organization, and would probably be
> > considered "lifers", meaning they would never leave the organization.
> >
> > So, as you may understand, seeing this every day, you might imagine why
I
> am
> > so disillusioned and pose this question. If I don't see certifications
> > meaning anything inside the organization I'm part of right now, what do
> > others see certifications worth in their world, their work, their area?
> Is
> > the playing field different "on the outside"? Does organization size
make
> > the difference? Do certifications matter more in an organization of 50
,
> or
> > in one with 50 thousand people?
> >
> > I guess the other confusing aspect is that I use my skills diffrently
now
> > than I did before. It used to matter that I could sit down on a bunch
of
> > routers or switches and configure (provision them when they are not
> ciscos)
> > and make them do anything under the sun. Now that's considered a less
> > valuable "production" type work, and the design,testing, project
> management,
> > policy writting, and architecture work I do is for some reason
considered
> > more important than all that "lesser", and once crucial "production"
work?
> > Now I spend my days testing and designing new infrastructres, and once
my
> > documentation and design is done and approved, people, they call them
> "I.T.
> > Specialists and "Junior Network Architects" sometimes getting paid a
> whole
> > lot less (almost half less) go out there and actually implement it
> > worldwide. Yes, I'm still called upon to analyize things when they go
> > wrong, and help out with the roll-outs, but somehow I pictured that I
> would
> > be touching more routers, not authoring documents of policy, design, and
> > architecture. (ok so maybe I'm having trouble adjusting, but I spent
many
> > long nights study this sh** to be an expert at it, all the time
> envisioning
> > that I would be building and deploying networks, actually using this
sh**,
> > to make a living, but what ended up happening is that I use maybe 20% of
> > that knowledge, and the rest of the stuff I actually get paid for has
> almost
> > nothing to do with any certification or education path)
> >
> > All the CCIE cisco certifications seem to be geared torwards doing this
> type
> > of "production" work, do CCIE's really use those skills in production
once
> > they receive their CCIE? Do they even touch a router anymore?
> >
> > Here's why I ask this, the one CCIE I personally know, he's the CIO at
the
> > site for the organization that I work for. He approves security policy
> for
> > the entire organization world wide, but it's probably been a long time
> since
> > he has even had to touch a router, switch, or firewall. (that's the job
> of
> > people like me, we go out, test the latest and greatest, create
proposals,
> > and them submit them to him to get approved) (though I should probably
> ask
> > him on monday in passing, when the last time he sat at a console
actually
> > was) I kid not, he is simply amazing, and he know's everything, and has
> this
> > scary guru type knowledge on networking and security, but I still hold
> that
> > I seriously doubt he uses any of the "production" type knowledge that
the
> > cisco ccie lab tests for on a day-to-day basis.
> >
> > That all makes it seem, that the concepts and years of expereince mean
> more
> > than the actuall cert, in this organization, but I wonder it it's the
same
> > everywhere else. Now, I'm sure that this CCIE has spent his years doing
> the
> > "production" work, but is the natural progression of things such that
once
> > you get the high tier certifications, that you move on to upper
> management,
> > and the type of work you end up doing is less and less hands on
techincal
> > and more and more business related?
> >
> > Another CCIE I've heard of, works in denver as a sales engineer for
> juniper
> > networks. In fact, juniper is one of the companies we are testing for
> > replacing some devices that aren't handling the load requierments of our
> > latest infrastructure(And I guess I'll probably end up working with this
> guy
> > when we get permission to actually talk to juniper). Here's this CCIE,
> > who's job is to tag along with salesmen of juniper equipment, and be
there
> > to just dole out knowledge and insight on a perpective customer's needs,
> and
> > how juniper equipment can fit it, in a mostly cisco world. But the
point
> > is, he too probably (and I guess) seldomly touches a router anymore.
> > Probably spends alot of time writting proposals, making drawings, and
> > looking at architectures and design than anything else.
> >
> > CCIE's are expensive to hire, I guess it makes sense to use them for the
> > most critical work, and leave the "grunt" work for other, less expensive
> > workers, but I guess my point is that the "grunt" work used to be fun
> > sometimes. When you get a CCIE or such, do you still get to play?
> >
> > Somehow I figured things would be different.
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