Claude,
Don't you think it's a little tacky to put CCDP and CCNP after CCIE? The
fact that you're CCIE should demonstrate you're ABOVE NP/DP level, no?
Dennis
""Claude-Vincent"" wrote in message
[EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> I agree with you, guys. In my case, I am working on
> writing proposals, designing networks etc. as you said
> and the network implementation is done by the service
> department. Fortunately my company is a training Gold
> partner so I can still play with all I want at any
> time.
>
> Claude-Vincent
> CCIE# 7419, CCDP, CCNP
>
> --- nrf wrote:
> > I first have to say that I agree with you in that I
> > find very few CCIE's
> > actually performing gritty hands-on work. So then
> > you are probably
> > wondering what is the whole point of working on your
> > configuration and
> > troubleshooting skills to become a CCIE, only to
> > then become shunted into a
> > position where those skills are rarely used? I have
> > also thought long and
> > hard about this phenomena.
> >
> >
> > OK, I'm going to open a can of worms here, and go
> > off on a bit of a tangent,
> > but just bear with me. I believe that criticisms of
> > the utility of industry
> > certifications could also be said about the college
> > degree. Sure, CCIE's
> > are routinely put into high-level positions that
> > involve little of the
> > hands-on configuring and troubleshooting that is the
> > very heart of the CCIE.
> > But as we all know, many companies have positions
> > that require job
> > candidates to have a degree, but few of those
> > positions actually require
> > the knowledge of the exact subjects people learn
> > in college. Would-be
> > flamers, hear me out.
> >
> > Consider the average bachelor's degree. If it is in
> > the humanities, you
> > spent quite a bit of time studying various authors
> > or artists, writing
> > papers on literary and artistic criticism (the who,
> > the what and the why of
> > the artist/author and his work) and being exposed
> > to various cultural
> > schools of thought. If it was in a social science,
> > then you most likely
> > studied a lot of socio/political/economic theory and
> > their application. If
> > you studied a science or engineering, then
> > high-level calculus was the
> > order of the day, in terms of expressing events in
> > mathematical terms. If
> > it was computer science, then a whole lot of
> > abstract programming theory.
> >
> > But regardless of what you studied, I think it is
> > universally true that
> > college graduates with whatever degree then plunge
> > into their careers and
> > rarely use the actual skills that they picked up in
> > college. Barring those
> > who have entered academia, how many times does the
> > typical grad with an
> > English degree get the opportunity to do an literary
> > analysis of Elizabeth
> > vs. Victorian poetry? How many real-world graduates
> > of economics, in their
> > day-to-day working life, actually have to whip out
> > supply/demand curves and
> > calculate marginal utility? Even the engineering
> > graduates (historically
> > one of the most applied of all the college
> > subjects), how many times do they
> > really have to derive out a 40-line thermodynamics
> > multivariable calculus
> > formula using just pencil and paper, and within 15
> > minutes?
> >
> > Ah but, college administrators and the pundits of
> > education will stress,
> > what make the college experience so valuable is not
> > the subject matter per
> > se, but rather the base level disciplining and
> > training of the mind that is
> > the ultimate goal. It is not the memorization of
> > the political theories of
> > Plato that is important, rather it is the improved
> > cultural exposure, the
> > openness to different philosophies, and the ability
> > to conceive of and
> > defend a particular thought. It is not the ability
> > to quickly derive and
> > calculate the eigenvectors of a linear algebra
> > matrix that is important,
> > rather it is the improved grasp and understanding of
> > abstract concepts that
> > is the real prize. In short, you college grads
> > are hired not for the
> > precise subject matter that they studied, but
> > because they have demonstrated
> > enhanced thought processes and the ability to
> > quickly learn whatever skills
> > they need for their career.
> >
> > Having said that, I believe that the CCIE is
> > evolving into a similar role.
> > CCIE's are prized by employers not because they can
> > type a config for and
> > troubleshoot a OSPF NBMA frame-relay network without
> > using subinterfaces and
> > while still electing a DR/BDR in less than an hour,
> > typing at 150
> > words-per-minute. Rather they are prized because in
> > the course of their
> > study, they have substantially improved their
> > knowledge of networking
> > fundamentals and have developed a systematic and
> > logical method of fixing
> > problems.
> >
> > Now, some readers out there might take exception to
> > the above paragraph and
> > point out that there are some CCIE's who have
> > developed more than a
> > superficial knowledge of networking, and obtained
> > their 4-digit-number just
> > by memorizing a whole bunch of CCO configs. Of
> > course I'm sure that has
> > happened.
> >
> > Yet the same thing also happens with the college
> > degree, but you hardly ever
> > hear anybody complain about that. I think everybody
> > college graduate has a
> > story about somebody they knew who was admitted
> > just because he could play
> > a sport, or because Daddy donated a lot of money, or
> > something like that.
> > Then that person deliberately searched for and
> > enrolled in the easiest
> > possible subjects and undertook the easiest possible
> > coursework (have you
> > ever noticed how Division 1 college football and
> > basketball players always
> > seem to major in things like mass communications or
> > hotel management?). But
> > they graduate just like everybody else.
> >
> > And, on another tangent, I have noticed lots of
> > people complain incessantly
> > about the paper certificate - the paper MCSE, the
> > paper CCNA, the paper
> > ABCDEFG. Yet, it seems to me that there is also
> > such a thing as a paper
> > college degree, but nobody ever seems to complain
> > about that.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ""NY50TT"" wrote in message
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > > Well here's a thread certain to start a fire, but
> > I thought I'd see what
> > > would happen.
> > >
> > > Does the community feel that Cisco Certifications
> > are still in demand in
> > the
> > > market place? Do they still get you through the
> > door in anything?
> > >
> > > I have been in the IT field for the better part of
> > 8 years. This year, I
> > > will be pulling in about 5K short of 100K, and I
> > have a very short list of
> > > certifications which I rarely use in the network
> > security and development
> > > position I'm in. I work for a very large, if not
> > the largest IT shop in
> > the
> > > world, and I am a little disoriented by what is
> > seen as really important
> > > inside this organization. I have some level of
> > respect for this
> > > organization because of it's sheer size and some
> > of the industry giants
> > and
> > > experts I work on teams with. However it doesn't
> > seem that certification
> > > matters. All of the top tier architects, the
> > "Gods" of the "Gods" are
> > all
> > > undoubtedly very good at what they do, and rumor
> > has it they are paid
> > > handsomely(much more than me), but a quick direct
> > survey of these rather
> > > humble people, and I find that they have just been
> > around for forever and
> > > seem to know near everything, especially about the
> > business aspect of
> > > things, but don't carry any certifications that
> > some deem so important to
> > > get(though I have no doubt they would pass if they
> > were forced to take the
> > > tests). Yet they are crucial to the organization,
> > and would probably be
> > > considered "lifers", meaning they would never
> > leave the organization.
> > >
> > > So, as you may understand, seeing this every day,
> > you might imagine why I
> > am
> > > so disillusioned and pose this question. If I
> > don't see certifications
> > > meaning anything inside the organization I'm part
> > of right now, what do
> > > others see certifications worth in their world,
> > their work, their area?
> > Is
> > > the playing field different "on the outside"?
> > Does organization size make
> > > the difference? Do certifications matter more in
> > an organization of 50 ,
> > or
> > > in one with 50 thousand people?
> > >
> > > I guess the other confusing aspect is that I use
> > my skills diffrently now
> > > than I did before. It used to matter that I could
> > sit down on a bunch of
> > > routers or switches and configure (provision them
> > when they are not
> > ciscos)
> > > and make them do anything under the sun. Now
> > that's considered a less
> > > valuable "production" type work, and the
> > design,testing, project
> > management,
> > > policy writting, and architecture work I do is for
> > some reason considered
> > > more important than all that "lesser", and once
> > crucial "production" work?
> > > Now I spend my days testing and designing new
> > infrastructres, and once my
> > > documentation and design is done and approved,
> > people, they call them
> > "I.T.
> > > Specialists and "Junior Network Architects"
> > sometimes getting paid a
> > whole
> > > lot less (almost half less) go out there and
> > actually implement it
> > > worldwide. Yes, I'm still called upon to analyize
> > things when they go
> > > wrong, and help out with the roll-outs, but
> > somehow I pictured that I
> > would
> > > be touching more routers, not authoring documents
> > of policy, design, and
> > > architecture. (ok so maybe I'm having trouble
> > adjusting, but I spent many
> > > long nights study this sh** to be an expert at it,
> > all the time
> > envisioning
> > > that I would be building and deploying networks,
> > actually using this sh**,
> > > to make a living, but what ended up happening is
> > that I use maybe 20% of
> > > that knowledge, and the rest of the stuff I
> > actually get paid for has
> > almost
> > > nothing to do with any certification or education
> > path)
> > >
> > > All the CCIE cisco certifications seem to be
> > geared torwards doing this
> > type
> > > of "production" work, do CCIE's really use those
> > skills in production once
> > > they receive their CCIE? Do they even touch a
> > router anymore?
> > >
> > > Here's why I ask this, the one CCIE I personally
> > know, he's the CIO at the
> > > site for the organization that I work for. He
> > approves security policy
> > for
> > > the entire organization world wide, but it's
> > probably been a long time
> > since
> > > he has even had to touch a router, switch, or
> > firewall. (that's the job
> > of
> > > people like me, we go out, test the latest and
> > greatest, create proposals,
> > > and them submit them to him to get approved)
> > (though I should probably
> > ask
> > > him on monday in passing, when the last time he
> > sat at a console actually
> > > was) I kid not, he is simply amazing, and he
> > know's everything, and has
> > this
> > > scary guru type knowledge on networking and
> > security, but I still hold
> > that
> > > I seriously doubt he uses any of the "production"
> > type knowledge that the
> > > cisco ccie lab tests for on a day-to-day basis.
> > >
> > > That all makes it seem, that the concepts and
> > years of expereince mean
> > more
> > > than the actuall cert, in this organization, but I
> > wonder it it's the same
> > > everywhere else. Now, I'm sure that this CCIE has
> > spent his years doing
> > the
> > > "production" work, but is the natural progression
> > of things such that once
> > > you get the high tier certifications, that you
> > move on to upper
> > management,
> > > and the type of work you end up doing is less and
> > less hands on techincal
> > > and more and more business related?
> > >
> > > Another CCIE I've heard of, works in denver as a
> > sales engineer for
> > juniper
> > > networks. In fact, juniper is one of the
> > companies we are testing for
> > > replacing some devices that aren't handling the
> > load requierments of our
> > > latest infrastructure(And I guess I'll probably
> > end up working with this
> > guy
> > > when we get permission to actually talk to
> > juniper). Here's this CCIE,
> > > who's job is to tag along with salesmen of juniper
> > equipment, and be there
> > > to just dole out knowledge and insight on a
> > perpective customer's needs,
> > and
> > > how juniper equipment can fit it, in a mostly
> > cisco world. But the point
> > > is, he too probably (and I guess) seldomly touches
> > a router anymore.
> > > Probably spends alot of time writting proposals,
> > making drawings, and
> > > looking at architectures and design than anything
> > else.
> > >
> > > CCIE's are expensive to hire, I guess it makes
> > sense to use them for the
> > > most critical work, and leave the "grunt" work for
> > other, less expensive
> > > workers, but I guess my point is that the "grunt"
> > work used to be fun
> > > sometimes. When you get a CCIE or such, do you
> > still get to play?
> > >
> > > Somehow I figured things would be different.
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
> =====
> Claude-Vincent Perez
> CCIE# 7419, CCDP, CCNP
>
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