Let's say that not every CCIE get all these certs.
Moreover, being certified CCIE doesn't prevent me from
recertifying CCNP and CCDP every 3 years as far as I
know ;-(
Cheers,
Claude-Vincent Perez
CCIE# 7419, CCDP, CCNP
--- hal9001 wrote:
> Thankyou, William, it is a long, very hard road and
> in this consumer
> orientated society unless you advertise your wares
> you will end up at the
> bottom of the pile!
>
> Karl - Bottom of the Pile!
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "William Gragido"
> To: "'hal9001'" ;
> Sent: Monday, July 02, 2001 10:13 PM
> Subject: RE: Cisco Certifications still worth
> anything? [7:10599]
>
>
> > I think that Claude has every right to put them
> there if he so desires
> > seeing as they are different certifications and he
> earned them.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of
> > hal9001
> > Sent: Monday, July 02, 2001 3:31 PM
> > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Subject: Re: Cisco Certifications still worth
> anything? [7:10599]
> >
> >
> > Flaunt it Claude flaunt it! Dennis I gather he's
> a great guy and a real
> hit
> > with the ladies as well, apparently they are all
> choked or is that they
> get
> > all choked up about him.
> >
> > Karl
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Dennis H"
> > To:
> > Sent: Monday, July 02, 2001 9:12 PM
> > Subject: Re: Cisco Certifications still worth
> anything? [7:10599]
> >
> >
> > > Claude,
> > >
> > > Don't you think it's a little tacky to put CCDP
> and CCNP after CCIE?
> The
> > > fact that you're CCIE should demonstrate you're
> ABOVE NP/DP level, no?
> > >
> > > Dennis
> > >
> > >
> > > ""Claude-Vincent"" wrote in message
> > > [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > > > I agree with you, guys. In my case, I am
> working on
> > > > writing proposals, designing networks etc. as
> you said
> > > > and the network implementation is done by the
> service
> > > > department. Fortunately my company is a
> training Gold
> > > > partner so I can still play with all I want at
> any
> > > > time.
> > > >
> > > > Claude-Vincent
> > > > CCIE# 7419, CCDP, CCNP
> > > >
> > > > --- nrf wrote:
> > > > > I first have to say that I agree with you in
> that I
> > > > > find very few CCIE's
> > > > > actually performing gritty hands-on work.
> So then
> > > > > you are probably
> > > > > wondering what is the whole point of working
> on your
> > > > > configuration and
> > > > > troubleshooting skills to become a CCIE,
> only to
> > > > > then become shunted into a
> > > > > position where those skills are rarely used?
> I have
> > > > > also thought long and
> > > > > hard about this phenomena.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > OK, I'm going to open a can of worms here,
> and go
> > > > > off on a bit of a tangent,
> > > > > but just bear with me. I believe that
> criticisms of
> > > > > the utility of industry
> > > > > certifications could also be said about the
> college
> > > > > degree. Sure, CCIE's
> > > > > are routinely put into high-level positions
> that
> > > > > involve little of the
> > > > > hands-on configuring and troubleshooting
> that is the
> > > > > very heart of the CCIE.
> > > > > But as we all know, many companies have
> positions
> > > > > that require job
> > > > > candidates to have a degree, but few of
> those
> > > > > positions actually require
> > > > > the knowledge of the exact subjects people
> learn
> > > > > in college. Would-be
> > > > > flamers, hear me out.
> > > > >
> > > > > Consider the average bachelor's degree. If
> it is in
> > > > > the humanities, you
> > > > > spent quite a bit of time studying various
> authors
> > > > > or artists, writing
> > > > > papers on literary and artistic criticism
> (the who,
> > > > > the what and the why of
> > > > > the artist/author and his work) and being
> exposed
> > > > > to various cultural
> > > > > schools of thought. If it was in a social
> science,
> > > > > then you most likely
> > > > > studied a lot of socio/political/economic
> theory and
> > > > > their application. If
> > > > > you studied a science or engineering, then
> > > > > high-level calculus was the
> > > > > order of the day, in terms of expressing
> events in
> > > > > mathematical terms. If
> > > > > it was computer science, then a whole lot of
> > > > > abstract programming theory.
> > > > >
> > > > > But regardless of what you studied, I think
> it is
> > > > > universally true that
> > > > > college graduates with whatever degree then
> plunge
> > > > > into their careers and
> > > > > rarely use the actual skills that they
> picked up in
> > > > > college. Barring those
> > > > > who have entered academia, how many times
> does the
> > > > > typical grad with an
> > > > > English degree get the opportunity to do an
> literary
> > > > > analysis of Elizabeth
> > > > > vs. Victorian poetry? How many real-world
> graduates
> > > > > of economics, in their
> > > > > day-to-day working life, actually have to
> whip out
> > > > > supply/demand curves and
> > > > > calculate marginal utility? Even the
> engineering
> > > > > graduates (historically
> > > > > one of the most applied of all the college
> > > > > subjects), how many times do they
> > > > > really have to derive out a 40-line
> thermodynamics
> > > > > multivariable calculus
> > > > > formula using just pencil and paper, and
> within 15
> > > > > minutes?
> > > > >
> > > > > Ah but, college administrators and the
> pundits of
> > > > > education will stress,
> > > > > what make the college experience so
> valuable is not
> > > > > the subject matter per
> > > > > se, but rather the base level disciplining
> and
> > > > > training of the mind that is
> > > > > the ultimate goal. It is not the
> memorization of
> > > > > the political theories of
> > > > > Plato that is important, rather it is the
> improved
> > > > > cultural exposure, the
> > > > > openness to different philosophies, and the
> ability
> > > > > to conceive of and
> > > > > defend a particular thought. It is not the
> ability
> > > > > to quickly derive and
> > > > > calculate the eigenvectors of a linear
> algebra
> > > > > matrix that is important,
> > > > > rather it is the improved grasp and
> understanding of
> > > > > abstract concepts that
> > > > > is the real prize. In short, you college
> grads
> > > > > are hired not for the
> > > > > precise subject matter that they studied,
> but
> > > > > because they have demonstrated
> > > > > enhanced thought processes and the ability
> to
> > > > > quickly learn whatever skills
> > > > > they need for their career.
> > > > >
> > > > > Having said that, I believe that the CCIE is
> > > > > evolving into a similar role.
> > > > > CCIE's are prized by employers not because
> they can
> > > > > type a config for and
> > > > > troubleshoot a OSPF NBMA frame-relay network
> without
> > > > > using subinterfaces and
> > > > > while still electing a DR/BDR in less than
> an hour,
> > > > > typing at 150
> > > > > words-per-minute. Rather they are prized
> because in
> > > > > the course of their
> > > > > study, they have substantially improved
> their
> > > > > knowledge of networking
> > > > > fundamentals and have developed a systematic
> and
> > > > > logical method of fixing
> > > > > problems.
> > > > >
> > > > > Now, some readers out there might take
> exception to
> > > > > the above paragraph and
> > > > > point out that there are some CCIE's who
> have
> > > > > developed more than a
> > > > > superficial knowledge of networking, and
> obtained
> > > > > their 4-digit-number just
> > > > > by memorizing a whole bunch of CCO configs.
> Of
> > > > > course I'm sure that has
> > > > > happened.
> > > > >
> > > > > Yet the same thing also happens with the
> college
> > > > > degree, but you hardly ever
> > > > > hear anybody complain about that. I think
> everybody
> > > > > college graduate has a
> > > > > story about somebody they knew who was
> admitted
> > > > > just because he could play
> > > > > a sport, or because Daddy donated a lot of
> money, or
> > > > > something like that.
> > > > > Then that person deliberately searched for
> and
> > > > > enrolled in the easiest
> > > > > possible subjects and undertook the easiest
> possible
> > > > > coursework (have you
> > > > > ever noticed how Division 1 college football
> and
> > > > > basketball players always
> > > > > seem to major in things like mass
> communications or
> > > > > hotel management?). But
> > > > > they graduate just like everybody else.
> > > > >
> > > > > And, on another tangent, I have noticed lots
> of
> > > > > people complain incessantly
> > > > > about the paper certificate - the paper
> MCSE, the
> > > > > paper CCNA, the paper
> > > > > ABCDEFG. Yet, it seems to me that there
> is also
> > > > > such a thing as a paper
> > > > > college degree, but nobody ever seems to
> complain
> > > > > about that.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ""NY50TT"" wrote in message
> > > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > > > > > Well here's a thread certain to start a
> fire, but
> > > > > I thought I'd see what
> > > > > > would happen.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Does the community feel that Cisco
> Certifications
> > > > > are still in demand in
> > > > > the
> > > > > > market place? Do they still get you
> through the
> > > > > door in anything?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I have been in the IT field for the better
> part of
> > > > > 8 years. This year, I
> > > > > > will be pulling in about 5K short of 100K,
> and I
> > > > > have a very short list of
> > > > > > certifications which I rarely use in the
> network
> > > > > security and development
> > > > > > position I'm in. I work for a very large,
> if not
> > > > > the largest IT shop in
> > > > > the
> > > > > > world, and I am a little disoriented by
> what is
> > > > > seen as really important
> > > > > > inside this organization. I have some
> level of
> > > > > respect for this
> > > > > > organization because of it's sheer size
> and some
> > > > > of the industry giants
> > > > > and
> > > > > > experts I work on teams with. However it
> doesn't
> > > > > seem that certification
> > > > > > matters. All of the top tier architects,
> the
> > > > > "Gods" of the "Gods" are
> > > > > all
> > > > > > undoubtedly very good at what they do, and
> rumor
> > > > > has it they are paid
> > > > > > handsomely(much more than me), but a quick
> direct
> > > > > survey of these rather
> > > > > > humble people, and I find that they have
> just been
> > > > > around for forever and
> > > > > > seem to know near everything, especially
> about the
> > > > > business aspect of
> > > > > > things, but don't carry any certifications
> that
> > > > > some deem so important to
> > > > > > get(though I have no doubt they would pass
> if they
> > > > > were forced to take the
> > > > > > tests). Yet they are crucial to the
> organization,
> > > > > and would probably be
> > > > > > considered "lifers", meaning they would
> never
> > > > > leave the organization.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > So, as you may understand, seeing this
> every day,
> > > > > you might imagine why I
> > > > > am
> > > > > > so disillusioned and pose this question.
> If I
> > > > > don't see certifications
> > > > > > meaning anything inside the organization
> I'm part
> > > > > of right now, what do
> > > > > > others see certifications worth in their
> world,
> > > > > their work, their area?
> > > > > Is
> > > > > > the playing field different "on the
> outside"?
> > > > > Does organization size make
> > > > > > the difference? Do certifications matter
> more in
> > > > > an organization of 50 ,
> > > > > or
> > > > > > in one with 50 thousand people?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I guess the other confusing aspect is
> that I use
> > > > > my skills diffrently now
> > > > > > than I did before. It used to matter that
> I could
> > > > > sit down on a bunch of
> > > > > > routers or switches and configure
> (provision them
> > > > > when they are not
> > > > > ciscos)
> > > > > > and make them do anything under the sun.
> Now
> > > > > that's considered a less
> > > > > > valuable "production" type work, and the
> > > > > design,testing, project
> > > > > management,
> > > > > > policy writting, and architecture work I
> do is for
> > > > > some reason considered
> > > > > > more important than all that "lesser", and
> once
> > > > > crucial "production" work?
> > > > > > Now I spend my days testing and designing
> new
> > > > > infrastructres, and once my
> > > > > > documentation and design is done and
> approved,
> > > > > people, they call them
> > > > > "I.T.
> > > > > > Specialists and "Junior Network
> Architects"
> > > > > sometimes getting paid a
> > > > > whole
> > > > > > lot less (almost half less) go out there
> and
> > > > > actually implement it
> > > > > > worldwide. Yes, I'm still called upon to
> analyize
> > > > > things when they go
> > > > > > wrong, and help out with the roll-outs,
> but
> > > > > somehow I pictured that I
> > > > > would
> > > > > > be touching more routers, not authoring
> documents
> > > > > of policy, design, and
> > > > > > architecture. (ok so maybe I'm having
> trouble
> > > > > adjusting, but I spent many
> > > > > > long nights study this sh** to be an
> expert at it,
> > > > > all the time
> > > > > envisioning
> > > > > > that I would be building and deploying
> networks,
> > > > > actually using this sh**,
> > > > > > to make a living, but what ended up
> happening is
> > > > > that I use maybe 20% of
> > > > > > that knowledge, and the rest of the stuff
> I
> > > > > actually get paid for has
> > > > > almost
> > > > > > nothing to do with any certification or
> education
> > > > > path)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > All the CCIE cisco certifications seem to
> be
> > > > > geared torwards doing this
> > > > > type
> > > > > > of "production" work, do CCIE's really use
> those
> > > > > skills in production once
> > > > > > they receive their CCIE? Do they even
> touch a
> > > > > router anymore?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Here's why I ask this, the one CCIE I
> personally
> > > > > know, he's the CIO at the
> > > > > > site for the organization that I work for.
> He
> > > > > approves security policy
> > > > > for
> > > > > > the entire organization world wide, but
> it's
> > > > > probably been a long time
> > > > > since
> > > > > > he has even had to touch a router, switch,
> or
> > > > > firewall. (that's the job
> > > > > of
> > > > > > people like me, we go out, test the latest
> and
> > > > > greatest, create proposals,
> > > > > > and them submit them to him to get
> approved)
> > > > > (though I should probably
> > > > > ask
> > > > > > him on monday in passing, when the last
> time he
> > > > > sat at a console actually
> > > > > > was) I kid not, he is simply amazing, and
> he
> > > > > know's everything, and has
> > > > > this
> > > > > > scary guru type knowledge on networking
> and
> > > > > security, but I still hold
> > > > > that
> > > > > > I seriously doubt he uses any of the
> "production"
> > > > > type knowledge that the
> > > > > > cisco ccie lab tests for on a day-to-day
> basis.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > That all makes it seem, that the concepts
> and
> > > > > years of expereince mean
> > > > > more
> > > > > > than the actuall cert, in this
> organization, but I
> > > > > wonder it it's the same
> > > > > > everywhere else. Now, I'm sure that this
> CCIE has
> > > > > spent his years doing
> > > > > the
> > > > > > "production" work, but is the natural
> progression
> > > > > of things such that once
> > > > > > you get the high tier certifications, that
> you
> > > > > move on to upper
> > > > > management,
> > > > > > and the type of work you end up doing is
> less and
> > > > > less hands on techincal
> > > > > > and more and more business related?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Another CCIE I've heard of, works in
> denver as a
> > > > > sales engineer for
> > > > > juniper
> > > > > > networks. In fact, juniper is one of the
> > > > > companies we are testing for
> > > > > > replacing some devices that aren't
> handling the
> > > > > load requierments of our
> > > > > > latest infrastructure(And I guess I'll
> probably
> > > > > end up working with this
> > > > > guy
> > > > > > when we get permission to actually talk to
> > > > > juniper). Here's this CCIE,
> > > > > > who's job is to tag along with salesmen of
> juniper
> > > > > equipment, and be there
> > > > > > to just dole out knowledge and insight on
> a
> > > > > perpective customer's needs,
> > > > > and
> > > > > > how juniper equipment can fit it, in a
> mostly
> > > > > cisco world. But the point
> > > > > > is, he too probably (and I guess) seldomly
> touches
> > > > > a router anymore.
> > > > > > Probably spends alot of time writting
> proposals,
> > > > > making drawings, and
> > > > > > looking at architectures and design than
> anything
> > > > > else.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > CCIE's are expensive to hire, I guess it
> makes
> > > > > sense to use them for the
> > > > > > most critical work, and leave the "grunt"
> work for
> > > > > other, less expensive
> > > > > > workers, but I guess my point is that the
> "grunt"
> > > > > work used to be fun
> > > > > > sometimes. When you get a CCIE or such,
> do you
> > > > > still get to play?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Somehow I figured things would be
> different.
> > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > =====
> > > > Claude-Vincent Perez
> > > > CCIE# 7419, CCDP, CCNP
> > > >
> > > >
> __________________________________________________
> > > > Do You Yahoo!?
> > > > Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo!
> Mail
> > > > http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
=====
Claude-Vincent Perez
CCIE# 7419, CCDP, CCNP
__________________________________________________
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