I agree with you, guys. In my case, I am working on
writing proposals, designing networks etc. as you said
and the network implementation is done by the service
department. Fortunately my company is a training Gold
partner so I can still play with all I want at any
time.
Claude-Vincent
CCIE# 7419, CCDP, CCNP
--- nrf wrote:
> I first have to say that I agree with you in that I
> find very few CCIE's
> actually performing gritty hands-on work. So then
> you are probably
> wondering what is the whole point of working on your
> configuration and
> troubleshooting skills to become a CCIE, only to
> then become shunted into a
> position where those skills are rarely used? I have
> also thought long and
> hard about this phenomena.
>
>
> OK, I'm going to open a can of worms here, and go
> off on a bit of a tangent,
> but just bear with me. I believe that criticisms of
> the utility of industry
> certifications could also be said about the college
> degree. Sure, CCIE's
> are routinely put into high-level positions that
> involve little of the
> hands-on configuring and troubleshooting that is the
> very heart of the CCIE.
> But as we all know, many companies have positions
> that require job
> candidates to have a degree, but few of those
> positions actually require
> the knowledge of the exact subjects people learn
> in college. Would-be
> flamers, hear me out.
>
> Consider the average bachelor's degree. If it is in
> the humanities, you
> spent quite a bit of time studying various authors
> or artists, writing
> papers on literary and artistic criticism (the who,
> the what and the why of
> the artist/author and his work) and being exposed
> to various cultural
> schools of thought. If it was in a social science,
> then you most likely
> studied a lot of socio/political/economic theory and
> their application. If
> you studied a science or engineering, then
> high-level calculus was the
> order of the day, in terms of expressing events in
> mathematical terms. If
> it was computer science, then a whole lot of
> abstract programming theory.
>
> But regardless of what you studied, I think it is
> universally true that
> college graduates with whatever degree then plunge
> into their careers and
> rarely use the actual skills that they picked up in
> college. Barring those
> who have entered academia, how many times does the
> typical grad with an
> English degree get the opportunity to do an literary
> analysis of Elizabeth
> vs. Victorian poetry? How many real-world graduates
> of economics, in their
> day-to-day working life, actually have to whip out
> supply/demand curves and
> calculate marginal utility? Even the engineering
> graduates (historically
> one of the most applied of all the college
> subjects), how many times do they
> really have to derive out a 40-line thermodynamics
> multivariable calculus
> formula using just pencil and paper, and within 15
> minutes?
>
> Ah but, college administrators and the pundits of
> education will stress,
> what make the college experience so valuable is not
> the subject matter per
> se, but rather the base level disciplining and
> training of the mind that is
> the ultimate goal. It is not the memorization of
> the political theories of
> Plato that is important, rather it is the improved
> cultural exposure, the
> openness to different philosophies, and the ability
> to conceive of and
> defend a particular thought. It is not the ability
> to quickly derive and
> calculate the eigenvectors of a linear algebra
> matrix that is important,
> rather it is the improved grasp and understanding of
> abstract concepts that
> is the real prize. In short, you college grads
> are hired not for the
> precise subject matter that they studied, but
> because they have demonstrated
> enhanced thought processes and the ability to
> quickly learn whatever skills
> they need for their career.
>
> Having said that, I believe that the CCIE is
> evolving into a similar role.
> CCIE's are prized by employers not because they can
> type a config for and
> troubleshoot a OSPF NBMA frame-relay network without
> using subinterfaces and
> while still electing a DR/BDR in less than an hour,
> typing at 150
> words-per-minute. Rather they are prized because in
> the course of their
> study, they have substantially improved their
> knowledge of networking
> fundamentals and have developed a systematic and
> logical method of fixing
> problems.
>
> Now, some readers out there might take exception to
> the above paragraph and
> point out that there are some CCIE's who have
> developed more than a
> superficial knowledge of networking, and obtained
> their 4-digit-number just
> by memorizing a whole bunch of CCO configs. Of
> course I'm sure that has
> happened.
>
> Yet the same thing also happens with the college
> degree, but you hardly ever
> hear anybody complain about that. I think everybody
> college graduate has a
> story about somebody they knew who was admitted
> just because he could play
> a sport, or because Daddy donated a lot of money, or
> something like that.
> Then that person deliberately searched for and
> enrolled in the easiest
> possible subjects and undertook the easiest possible
> coursework (have you
> ever noticed how Division 1 college football and
> basketball players always
> seem to major in things like mass communications or
> hotel management?). But
> they graduate just like everybody else.
>
> And, on another tangent, I have noticed lots of
> people complain incessantly
> about the paper certificate - the paper MCSE, the
> paper CCNA, the paper
> ABCDEFG. Yet, it seems to me that there is also
> such a thing as a paper
> college degree, but nobody ever seems to complain
> about that.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ""NY50TT"" wrote in message
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > Well here's a thread certain to start a fire, but
> I thought I'd see what
> > would happen.
> >
> > Does the community feel that Cisco Certifications
> are still in demand in
> the
> > market place? Do they still get you through the
> door in anything?
> >
> > I have been in the IT field for the better part of
> 8 years. This year, I
> > will be pulling in about 5K short of 100K, and I
> have a very short list of
> > certifications which I rarely use in the network
> security and development
> > position I'm in. I work for a very large, if not
> the largest IT shop in
> the
> > world, and I am a little disoriented by what is
> seen as really important
> > inside this organization. I have some level of
> respect for this
> > organization because of it's sheer size and some
> of the industry giants
> and
> > experts I work on teams with. However it doesn't
> seem that certification
> > matters. All of the top tier architects, the
> "Gods" of the "Gods" are
> all
> > undoubtedly very good at what they do, and rumor
> has it they are paid
> > handsomely(much more than me), but a quick direct
> survey of these rather
> > humble people, and I find that they have just been
> around for forever and
> > seem to know near everything, especially about the
> business aspect of
> > things, but don't carry any certifications that
> some deem so important to
> > get(though I have no doubt they would pass if they
> were forced to take the
> > tests). Yet they are crucial to the organization,
> and would probably be
> > considered "lifers", meaning they would never
> leave the organization.
> >
> > So, as you may understand, seeing this every day,
> you might imagine why I
> am
> > so disillusioned and pose this question. If I
> don't see certifications
> > meaning anything inside the organization I'm part
> of right now, what do
> > others see certifications worth in their world,
> their work, their area?
> Is
> > the playing field different "on the outside"?
> Does organization size make
> > the difference? Do certifications matter more in
> an organization of 50 ,
> or
> > in one with 50 thousand people?
> >
> > I guess the other confusing aspect is that I use
> my skills diffrently now
> > than I did before. It used to matter that I could
> sit down on a bunch of
> > routers or switches and configure (provision them
> when they are not
> ciscos)
> > and make them do anything under the sun. Now
> that's considered a less
> > valuable "production" type work, and the
> design,testing, project
> management,
> > policy writting, and architecture work I do is for
> some reason considered
> > more important than all that "lesser", and once
> crucial "production" work?
> > Now I spend my days testing and designing new
> infrastructres, and once my
> > documentation and design is done and approved,
> people, they call them
> "I.T.
> > Specialists and "Junior Network Architects"
> sometimes getting paid a
> whole
> > lot less (almost half less) go out there and
> actually implement it
> > worldwide. Yes, I'm still called upon to analyize
> things when they go
> > wrong, and help out with the roll-outs, but
> somehow I pictured that I
> would
> > be touching more routers, not authoring documents
> of policy, design, and
> > architecture. (ok so maybe I'm having trouble
> adjusting, but I spent many
> > long nights study this sh** to be an expert at it,
> all the time
> envisioning
> > that I would be building and deploying networks,
> actually using this sh**,
> > to make a living, but what ended up happening is
> that I use maybe 20% of
> > that knowledge, and the rest of the stuff I
> actually get paid for has
> almost
> > nothing to do with any certification or education
> path)
> >
> > All the CCIE cisco certifications seem to be
> geared torwards doing this
> type
> > of "production" work, do CCIE's really use those
> skills in production once
> > they receive their CCIE? Do they even touch a
> router anymore?
> >
> > Here's why I ask this, the one CCIE I personally
> know, he's the CIO at the
> > site for the organization that I work for. He
> approves security policy
> for
> > the entire organization world wide, but it's
> probably been a long time
> since
> > he has even had to touch a router, switch, or
> firewall. (that's the job
> of
> > people like me, we go out, test the latest and
> greatest, create proposals,
> > and them submit them to him to get approved)
> (though I should probably
> ask
> > him on monday in passing, when the last time he
> sat at a console actually
> > was) I kid not, he is simply amazing, and he
> know's everything, and has
> this
> > scary guru type knowledge on networking and
> security, but I still hold
> that
> > I seriously doubt he uses any of the "production"
> type knowledge that the
> > cisco ccie lab tests for on a day-to-day basis.
> >
> > That all makes it seem, that the concepts and
> years of expereince mean
> more
> > than the actuall cert, in this organization, but I
> wonder it it's the same
> > everywhere else. Now, I'm sure that this CCIE has
> spent his years doing
> the
> > "production" work, but is the natural progression
> of things such that once
> > you get the high tier certifications, that you
> move on to upper
> management,
> > and the type of work you end up doing is less and
> less hands on techincal
> > and more and more business related?
> >
> > Another CCIE I've heard of, works in denver as a
> sales engineer for
> juniper
> > networks. In fact, juniper is one of the
> companies we are testing for
> > replacing some devices that aren't handling the
> load requierments of our
> > latest infrastructure(And I guess I'll probably
> end up working with this
> guy
> > when we get permission to actually talk to
> juniper). Here's this CCIE,
> > who's job is to tag along with salesmen of juniper
> equipment, and be there
> > to just dole out knowledge and insight on a
> perpective customer's needs,
> and
> > how juniper equipment can fit it, in a mostly
> cisco world. But the point
> > is, he too probably (and I guess) seldomly touches
> a router anymore.
> > Probably spends alot of time writting proposals,
> making drawings, and
> > looking at architectures and design than anything
> else.
> >
> > CCIE's are expensive to hire, I guess it makes
> sense to use them for the
> > most critical work, and leave the "grunt" work for
> other, less expensive
> > workers, but I guess my point is that the "grunt"
> work used to be fun
> > sometimes. When you get a CCIE or such, do you
> still get to play?
> >
> > Somehow I figured things would be different.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
=====
Claude-Vincent Perez
CCIE# 7419, CCDP, CCNP
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