Thankyou, William, it is a long, very hard road and in this consumer
orientated society unless you advertise your wares you will end up at the
bottom of the pile!
Karl - Bottom of the Pile!
----- Original Message -----
From: "William Gragido"
To: "'hal9001'" ;
Sent: Monday, July 02, 2001 10:13 PM
Subject: RE: Cisco Certifications still worth anything? [7:10599]
> I think that Claude has every right to put them there if he so desires
> seeing as they are different certifications and he earned them.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of
> hal9001
> Sent: Monday, July 02, 2001 3:31 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: Cisco Certifications still worth anything? [7:10599]
>
>
> Flaunt it Claude flaunt it! Dennis I gather he's a great guy and a real
hit
> with the ladies as well, apparently they are all choked or is that they
get
> all choked up about him.
>
> Karl
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Dennis H"
> To:
> Sent: Monday, July 02, 2001 9:12 PM
> Subject: Re: Cisco Certifications still worth anything? [7:10599]
>
>
> > Claude,
> >
> > Don't you think it's a little tacky to put CCDP and CCNP after CCIE?
The
> > fact that you're CCIE should demonstrate you're ABOVE NP/DP level, no?
> >
> > Dennis
> >
> >
> > ""Claude-Vincent"" wrote in message
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > > I agree with you, guys. In my case, I am working on
> > > writing proposals, designing networks etc. as you said
> > > and the network implementation is done by the service
> > > department. Fortunately my company is a training Gold
> > > partner so I can still play with all I want at any
> > > time.
> > >
> > > Claude-Vincent
> > > CCIE# 7419, CCDP, CCNP
> > >
> > > --- nrf wrote:
> > > > I first have to say that I agree with you in that I
> > > > find very few CCIE's
> > > > actually performing gritty hands-on work. So then
> > > > you are probably
> > > > wondering what is the whole point of working on your
> > > > configuration and
> > > > troubleshooting skills to become a CCIE, only to
> > > > then become shunted into a
> > > > position where those skills are rarely used? I have
> > > > also thought long and
> > > > hard about this phenomena.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > OK, I'm going to open a can of worms here, and go
> > > > off on a bit of a tangent,
> > > > but just bear with me. I believe that criticisms of
> > > > the utility of industry
> > > > certifications could also be said about the college
> > > > degree. Sure, CCIE's
> > > > are routinely put into high-level positions that
> > > > involve little of the
> > > > hands-on configuring and troubleshooting that is the
> > > > very heart of the CCIE.
> > > > But as we all know, many companies have positions
> > > > that require job
> > > > candidates to have a degree, but few of those
> > > > positions actually require
> > > > the knowledge of the exact subjects people learn
> > > > in college. Would-be
> > > > flamers, hear me out.
> > > >
> > > > Consider the average bachelor's degree. If it is in
> > > > the humanities, you
> > > > spent quite a bit of time studying various authors
> > > > or artists, writing
> > > > papers on literary and artistic criticism (the who,
> > > > the what and the why of
> > > > the artist/author and his work) and being exposed
> > > > to various cultural
> > > > schools of thought. If it was in a social science,
> > > > then you most likely
> > > > studied a lot of socio/political/economic theory and
> > > > their application. If
> > > > you studied a science or engineering, then
> > > > high-level calculus was the
> > > > order of the day, in terms of expressing events in
> > > > mathematical terms. If
> > > > it was computer science, then a whole lot of
> > > > abstract programming theory.
> > > >
> > > > But regardless of what you studied, I think it is
> > > > universally true that
> > > > college graduates with whatever degree then plunge
> > > > into their careers and
> > > > rarely use the actual skills that they picked up in
> > > > college. Barring those
> > > > who have entered academia, how many times does the
> > > > typical grad with an
> > > > English degree get the opportunity to do an literary
> > > > analysis of Elizabeth
> > > > vs. Victorian poetry? How many real-world graduates
> > > > of economics, in their
> > > > day-to-day working life, actually have to whip out
> > > > supply/demand curves and
> > > > calculate marginal utility? Even the engineering
> > > > graduates (historically
> > > > one of the most applied of all the college
> > > > subjects), how many times do they
> > > > really have to derive out a 40-line thermodynamics
> > > > multivariable calculus
> > > > formula using just pencil and paper, and within 15
> > > > minutes?
> > > >
> > > > Ah but, college administrators and the pundits of
> > > > education will stress,
> > > > what make the college experience so valuable is not
> > > > the subject matter per
> > > > se, but rather the base level disciplining and
> > > > training of the mind that is
> > > > the ultimate goal. It is not the memorization of
> > > > the political theories of
> > > > Plato that is important, rather it is the improved
> > > > cultural exposure, the
> > > > openness to different philosophies, and the ability
> > > > to conceive of and
> > > > defend a particular thought. It is not the ability
> > > > to quickly derive and
> > > > calculate the eigenvectors of a linear algebra
> > > > matrix that is important,
> > > > rather it is the improved grasp and understanding of
> > > > abstract concepts that
> > > > is the real prize. In short, you college grads
> > > > are hired not for the
> > > > precise subject matter that they studied, but
> > > > because they have demonstrated
> > > > enhanced thought processes and the ability to
> > > > quickly learn whatever skills
> > > > they need for their career.
> > > >
> > > > Having said that, I believe that the CCIE is
> > > > evolving into a similar role.
> > > > CCIE's are prized by employers not because they can
> > > > type a config for and
> > > > troubleshoot a OSPF NBMA frame-relay network without
> > > > using subinterfaces and
> > > > while still electing a DR/BDR in less than an hour,
> > > > typing at 150
> > > > words-per-minute. Rather they are prized because in
> > > > the course of their
> > > > study, they have substantially improved their
> > > > knowledge of networking
> > > > fundamentals and have developed a systematic and
> > > > logical method of fixing
> > > > problems.
> > > >
> > > > Now, some readers out there might take exception to
> > > > the above paragraph and
> > > > point out that there are some CCIE's who have
> > > > developed more than a
> > > > superficial knowledge of networking, and obtained
> > > > their 4-digit-number just
> > > > by memorizing a whole bunch of CCO configs. Of
> > > > course I'm sure that has
> > > > happened.
> > > >
> > > > Yet the same thing also happens with the college
> > > > degree, but you hardly ever
> > > > hear anybody complain about that. I think everybody
> > > > college graduate has a
> > > > story about somebody they knew who was admitted
> > > > just because he could play
> > > > a sport, or because Daddy donated a lot of money, or
> > > > something like that.
> > > > Then that person deliberately searched for and
> > > > enrolled in the easiest
> > > > possible subjects and undertook the easiest possible
> > > > coursework (have you
> > > > ever noticed how Division 1 college football and
> > > > basketball players always
> > > > seem to major in things like mass communications or
> > > > hotel management?). But
> > > > they graduate just like everybody else.
> > > >
> > > > And, on another tangent, I have noticed lots of
> > > > people complain incessantly
> > > > about the paper certificate - the paper MCSE, the
> > > > paper CCNA, the paper
> > > > ABCDEFG. Yet, it seems to me that there is also
> > > > such a thing as a paper
> > > > college degree, but nobody ever seems to complain
> > > > about that.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ""NY50TT"" wrote in message
> > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > > > > Well here's a thread certain to start a fire, but
> > > > I thought I'd see what
> > > > > would happen.
> > > > >
> > > > > Does the community feel that Cisco Certifications
> > > > are still in demand in
> > > > the
> > > > > market place? Do they still get you through the
> > > > door in anything?
> > > > >
> > > > > I have been in the IT field for the better part of
> > > > 8 years. This year, I
> > > > > will be pulling in about 5K short of 100K, and I
> > > > have a very short list of
> > > > > certifications which I rarely use in the network
> > > > security and development
> > > > > position I'm in. I work for a very large, if not
> > > > the largest IT shop in
> > > > the
> > > > > world, and I am a little disoriented by what is
> > > > seen as really important
> > > > > inside this organization. I have some level of
> > > > respect for this
> > > > > organization because of it's sheer size and some
> > > > of the industry giants
> > > > and
> > > > > experts I work on teams with. However it doesn't
> > > > seem that certification
> > > > > matters. All of the top tier architects, the
> > > > "Gods" of the "Gods" are
> > > > all
> > > > > undoubtedly very good at what they do, and rumor
> > > > has it they are paid
> > > > > handsomely(much more than me), but a quick direct
> > > > survey of these rather
> > > > > humble people, and I find that they have just been
> > > > around for forever and
> > > > > seem to know near everything, especially about the
> > > > business aspect of
> > > > > things, but don't carry any certifications that
> > > > some deem so important to
> > > > > get(though I have no doubt they would pass if they
> > > > were forced to take the
> > > > > tests). Yet they are crucial to the organization,
> > > > and would probably be
> > > > > considered "lifers", meaning they would never
> > > > leave the organization.
> > > > >
> > > > > So, as you may understand, seeing this every day,
> > > > you might imagine why I
> > > > am
> > > > > so disillusioned and pose this question. If I
> > > > don't see certifications
> > > > > meaning anything inside the organization I'm part
> > > > of right now, what do
> > > > > others see certifications worth in their world,
> > > > their work, their area?
> > > > Is
> > > > > the playing field different "on the outside"?
> > > > Does organization size make
> > > > > the difference? Do certifications matter more in
> > > > an organization of 50 ,
> > > > or
> > > > > in one with 50 thousand people?
> > > > >
> > > > > I guess the other confusing aspect is that I use
> > > > my skills diffrently now
> > > > > than I did before. It used to matter that I could
> > > > sit down on a bunch of
> > > > > routers or switches and configure (provision them
> > > > when they are not
> > > > ciscos)
> > > > > and make them do anything under the sun. Now
> > > > that's considered a less
> > > > > valuable "production" type work, and the
> > > > design,testing, project
> > > > management,
> > > > > policy writting, and architecture work I do is for
> > > > some reason considered
> > > > > more important than all that "lesser", and once
> > > > crucial "production" work?
> > > > > Now I spend my days testing and designing new
> > > > infrastructres, and once my
> > > > > documentation and design is done and approved,
> > > > people, they call them
> > > > "I.T.
> > > > > Specialists and "Junior Network Architects"
> > > > sometimes getting paid a
> > > > whole
> > > > > lot less (almost half less) go out there and
> > > > actually implement it
> > > > > worldwide. Yes, I'm still called upon to analyize
> > > > things when they go
> > > > > wrong, and help out with the roll-outs, but
> > > > somehow I pictured that I
> > > > would
> > > > > be touching more routers, not authoring documents
> > > > of policy, design, and
> > > > > architecture. (ok so maybe I'm having trouble
> > > > adjusting, but I spent many
> > > > > long nights study this sh** to be an expert at it,
> > > > all the time
> > > > envisioning
> > > > > that I would be building and deploying networks,
> > > > actually using this sh**,
> > > > > to make a living, but what ended up happening is
> > > > that I use maybe 20% of
> > > > > that knowledge, and the rest of the stuff I
> > > > actually get paid for has
> > > > almost
> > > > > nothing to do with any certification or education
> > > > path)
> > > > >
> > > > > All the CCIE cisco certifications seem to be
> > > > geared torwards doing this
> > > > type
> > > > > of "production" work, do CCIE's really use those
> > > > skills in production once
> > > > > they receive their CCIE? Do they even touch a
> > > > router anymore?
> > > > >
> > > > > Here's why I ask this, the one CCIE I personally
> > > > know, he's the CIO at the
> > > > > site for the organization that I work for. He
> > > > approves security policy
> > > > for
> > > > > the entire organization world wide, but it's
> > > > probably been a long time
> > > > since
> > > > > he has even had to touch a router, switch, or
> > > > firewall. (that's the job
> > > > of
> > > > > people like me, we go out, test the latest and
> > > > greatest, create proposals,
> > > > > and them submit them to him to get approved)
> > > > (though I should probably
> > > > ask
> > > > > him on monday in passing, when the last time he
> > > > sat at a console actually
> > > > > was) I kid not, he is simply amazing, and he
> > > > know's everything, and has
> > > > this
> > > > > scary guru type knowledge on networking and
> > > > security, but I still hold
> > > > that
> > > > > I seriously doubt he uses any of the "production"
> > > > type knowledge that the
> > > > > cisco ccie lab tests for on a day-to-day basis.
> > > > >
> > > > > That all makes it seem, that the concepts and
> > > > years of expereince mean
> > > > more
> > > > > than the actuall cert, in this organization, but I
> > > > wonder it it's the same
> > > > > everywhere else. Now, I'm sure that this CCIE has
> > > > spent his years doing
> > > > the
> > > > > "production" work, but is the natural progression
> > > > of things such that once
> > > > > you get the high tier certifications, that you
> > > > move on to upper
> > > > management,
> > > > > and the type of work you end up doing is less and
> > > > less hands on techincal
> > > > > and more and more business related?
> > > > >
> > > > > Another CCIE I've heard of, works in denver as a
> > > > sales engineer for
> > > > juniper
> > > > > networks. In fact, juniper is one of the
> > > > companies we are testing for
> > > > > replacing some devices that aren't handling the
> > > > load requierments of our
> > > > > latest infrastructure(And I guess I'll probably
> > > > end up working with this
> > > > guy
> > > > > when we get permission to actually talk to
> > > > juniper). Here's this CCIE,
> > > > > who's job is to tag along with salesmen of juniper
> > > > equipment, and be there
> > > > > to just dole out knowledge and insight on a
> > > > perpective customer's needs,
> > > > and
> > > > > how juniper equipment can fit it, in a mostly
> > > > cisco world. But the point
> > > > > is, he too probably (and I guess) seldomly touches
> > > > a router anymore.
> > > > > Probably spends alot of time writting proposals,
> > > > making drawings, and
> > > > > looking at architectures and design than anything
> > > > else.
> > > > >
> > > > > CCIE's are expensive to hire, I guess it makes
> > > > sense to use them for the
> > > > > most critical work, and leave the "grunt" work for
> > > > other, less expensive
> > > > > workers, but I guess my point is that the "grunt"
> > > > work used to be fun
> > > > > sometimes. When you get a CCIE or such, do you
> > > > still get to play?
> > > > >
> > > > > Somehow I figured things would be different.
> > > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > >
> > >
> > > =====
> > > Claude-Vincent Perez
> > > CCIE# 7419, CCDP, CCNP
> > >
> > > __________________________________________________
> > > Do You Yahoo!?
> > > Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail
> > > http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
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