such a pissing contest for chrissakes? Being a New Yorker I enjoy the give &
take. We say f*ck you to each other the way most people say good morning. But
pig-headed barely covers it here. Your words not mine Dan.
First, three things:
Dan;
1. Please don't use my work email address, it is for work only. That was not
the point of origin of my message, it was in the header, I know. No hard
feelings. Just please don't use it.
2. Why this at least somewhat reasonable reply only to me personally, and
that
ridiculous post to the list ?
3. Lighten up man. This is neither religion, politics, or sex. Rather than
getting a job bagging groceries, why don't you relax and enjoy the
opportunity
to learn about something new and enhance your career? My warnings about the
impending obsolescence of software based routers as such was not intended as
an insult, but as a heads up. One would think smart folks like those on this
list would want to be hip to "the next big thing" as Chuck said. Meanwhile
understanding routing and protocols is just as important as ever and will
continue to be, so your efforts are hardly wasted. But IOS as such has become
a limitation to engineering distributed systems which are key to getting away
from purely software based boxes.
Your sarcasm and anal aggressive attitude notwithstanding, you do bring up
some interesting points that I think deserve discussion amongst the broader
list so I'm forwarding this along whether you want the list to know you can
actually behave like a reasonable human being or not. This does not require a
reply on your part btw, unless you genuinely want to add something
constructive.
Dan stated: "Of course we want solid Cisco shops !" This finally gets down to
the nitty gritty of it doesn't it ?
What if doing it strictly the Cisco way leaves you with a network that is far
more complex than it needs to be, doesn't scale, (or at best only scales at
huge additional expense), and performs poorly on a day to day basis? As an
engineer wouldn't you want to arrive at a solution that best serves your
companies or clients needs? How does having a sub-par network make your life
easier? How many Cisco clients have put in switched networks and found no
improvement? Why was there no improvement? (starts with an r...ends with a
call to Nortel...sorry I couldn't resist (1-800-4-Nortel btw)) (that was
humor)
If you can't implement a 2 layer campus switched network with gig-e risers
and
100Mb to the desktops because a pair of Cat6500s can't scale to service all
those closets, what do you do? Add a whole extra layer? If you have to
interconnect campuses, what do we call the layer that used to be called the
core that is now L2 only since the performance of our "Core" Cat 6500s
plummets if we turn on L3? What if you could just enable routing on the ports
feeding the risers with no penalty in throughput, and no add-on hardware
required? (what a concept ! ..pretty cool huh? Lets start a company!)
Personally I would want to have those options if I was designing a network.
Lastly what do we do if our "Core" connects to the rest of our corporate
network via optical ethernet and we need one L3 port in our L2 only Core ???
Add another Layer ? How many Cat 6500s do we need in that layer to have
redundant links to all the switches in the layer above that can't be
connected
to each other because of spanning tree issues ? I can understand John
Chambers
wanting to push a few extra boxes on his loyal customers, but this is getting
downright scary! I'm reminded of the Wall St. firm that couldn't implement
the
network Cisco designed for them (all Cat6500s, everywhere) because the
building management said they would have to vacate three floors in the
building to provide enough power. Is this stuff becoming relevant yet ?
Most of the firms and agencies I have consulted at in the past and work with
today use a variety of different systems depending on what serves their
purposes and requirements best. Not just in networking equipment, but in
systems too; both platform types and network operating systems. All too often
the shops that won't consider anything but one brand do so because they
either
lack the expertise in house to properly evaluate and engineer the
alternatives
or their technology decisions are being made by upper management without
consulting the knowledgeable people they do have on staff, very often to the
chagrin of those who must implement and maintain it. Believe me I've watched
many a train wreck in progress, and it's very difficult to bear when you are
the sort of person who tries to do things properly.
Aside from my current responsibilities as a Nortel SE I have no particular
preferences and can honestly say that if I were consulting again I would
recommend a solution that would best meet my client's criteria, and make sure
they understood the trade-offs they were making. If their primary criteria
was
maintaining a single vendor solution and the already have crisco up the
wazoo,
so be it. It's their wazoo, right ? But what if cost is their secondary
consideration, and redundancy is right up there too? That could change the
game entirely, and often does. What if they will want to sue the consultant
if
when I'm done building to their criteria the network still sucks?
As for the maturity or lack thereof and the progress of optical networking.
I'll just say a word to the wise is usually sufficient.
And what the hey, a link might be useful.
http://www.metroethernetforum.org/
Go in peace...and keep your head down.
-----Original Message-----
From: Dan Faulk [mailto:dfaulk@ home.com]
Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2001 7:53 PM
Subject: RE: RANT Longish, Why Cisco and not ...!!! [7:19933]
Oh seems to be lots of bandwidth available today...
Look I am not going to get on anybody's bandwagon. To be objective I've seen
much less rah-rah on this list than I've seen curses directed toward Cisco,
rather unique for a vendor oriented list. It is without a doubt love-hate
relationship we have with Cisco and IOS. However your reaction to what I
consider understandable loyally to the Cisco brand is rather odd given you
are on a Cisco certification list. Of course we want solid Cisco shops!
Makes life one hell of a lot easier for one thing, come on given a choice
most would. I spent some time on the web site you listed and it seems this
field is at a very early stage to be making claims of an epiphany just yet.
Pardon my skepticism but I've heard it way to many times. If and when it
shows me what it can do I will be the first to say "yeah so what's next?".
Guess I will just bury my head in the sand now since all I have learned and
aspired to is now obsolete. Excuse me while I get a job bagging
groceries....
One eye on the cockpit,
Dan
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of
Robert Hanley
Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2001 6:10 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: RANT Longish, Why Cisco and not ...!!! [7:19933]
I wasn't going to clutter up the list and waste B/w, but you asked me to
enlighten you, and I guess the information should be available to all. Yes,
I am responding using a different email address because its convenient; but
I'm the same Robert Hanley.
If you read the thread in context I responded to someone looking for reasons
why no one should buy anything but Cisco. If my attempt to add breadth to
this persons understanding of the industry are lost on you that's
unfortunate for you. There are no sour grapes here, but I am always amazed
at the arrogant and dismissive attitudes I encounter whenever anything but
Cisco cheerleading is expressed. I participate in the list to take Cisco
exams too, which I am getting back to after being busy taking Nortel cert
tests, which were a requirement for my commissions. They were very
educational btw, and have helped me to understand many of the aspects of
Cisco's certification process in a new light. If you are only interested in
passing exams, and not in understanding the business you would participate
in, you may want to re-examine your motives.
A lab comprised of the gear I'm talking about costs millions of $ and yes
there is a cert. It is indeed esteemed, but perhaps in different circles
than you will find yourself. Oh well...
http://www.nortelnetworks.com/servsup/certification/optical_cert/index.html
The kind of change I'm talking about happens about every 10 years, even in
this very fast moving business. The last time was when two college
professors at Stanford wanted to make their department's computers talk
together. But that's another story.
Go in peace...and keep your head down.
"Dan Faulk" wrote in message
...
> All this is very educational and almost useless to the task at hand. Many
of
> us are here to prepare ourselves for the toughest test we've ever taken
> outside of marriage (I aint kidding folks), and have chosen this path for
> several good reasons. None of which are related to the sour grapes between
> Cisco and Nortel, which BTW are no different than those between Microsoft
> and IBM of several years ago.
>
> If Nortel is sponsoring an industry certification with near the widespread
> esteem of Cisco's CCIE please by all means tell us what we are missing. I
> can put together a Nortel lab much cheaper than a Cisco one and am all
> ears.....
>
> This industry has been in constant flux since day 0 and all the claims of
> mine is bigger than yours doesn't matter one wit. Personally I think
Nortel
> makes a good product though not as good as Cisco's overall but that's
IMHO.
> If they have a lead in a up and coming market segment good for them, they
> need it. But don't fool yourselves it wont last never has, never will and
> Cisco in particular I'm sure keeps that in mind. Sorry for the OT its been
a
> long week and it aint over yet as now I got to "try" and find a flight to
> Houston.
>
> Give 'em hell Dubya
> Dan
> {only a Cisco stock holder since 2001, but I bought at 13 :)) }
Message Posted at:
http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=20121&t=19933
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