A point that might not have been adequately articulated thus far is as follows:
Until the past couple of years, many CS programs had no mechanisms in place to ensure that a graduate would be of better value to a corporation requiring networking or troubleshooting skills than someone without a CS degree. This is compounded by CS graduates who act as if they ARE better qualified because they took many courses requiring them to develop code within the confines of classical programming languages/environments while avoiding curriculum that emphasized data communications like some manner of biblical plague. Just as people are likely to generalize based upon someone's level of education, they are equally likely to adopt inflexible opinions based upon their exposure to someone who, although talented & potentially capable of wielding superior cognitive firepower, is not immediately useful, and in fact obstructive, due to their lack of exposure to the business world, and their stubborn belief in their own infallability. For the record, the characteristics I've pointed out are indicative of the individuals involved, not their field of study. CS is just a natural target for people who wish to behave this way. An enlightened approach I've noticed is institutions who require that a candidate have a degree-not necessarily in computer science-to apply for a given networking/support (more-accurately: non-programming) position. This approach seems to form a balanced approach to addressing both sets of concerns. Unless I'm missing something terribly obvious (and yes, I'm aware that that phrase is somewhat [if not doubly] redundant). Feedback? ----- Original Message ----- From: "nrf" To: Sent: Sunday, April 21, 2002 2:32 AM Subject: Re: MBA or CCIE [7:41809] > ""Chuck"" wrote in message > [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... > > one answer to your question might be that real management skills are still > > required to run the business. > > > > another might be that the venture capitalists and the investment bankers > > required what they deemed as qualified managers to be part of the > management > > team. > > Yes I understand. But either way, you must agree that it's really neither > here nor there. At the end of the day, if companies - for whatever reason - > want the degree , then the degree is what you will need to provide. > > > > > there can be substantial differences in the skill sets required to be an > > entrepreneur, visionary, leader, and the skill sets of professional > > managers. Even innovative tech companies need both. > > Absolutely. However I consider the degree a case of 'playing the > percentages'. Yes, you could roll the dice and try to be the next Gates, > and it might happen. But probably not. > > Tech companies do indeed need both pro-managers and tech visionaries. But > it's not really a case of 'either-or' when a degree is involved. It's not > like by getting a degree, you are forfeiting tech visionary capabilities. > You can have both - you can be both a visionary and have a lot of education. > In fact,not only is it possible, it is actually quite likely, because highly > educated people in fact tend to tech visionaries, some important exceptions > notwithstanding. Gates may have no formal education. But, for example, > the guys who founded Intel were all PhD's (Noyce -MIT, Moore - Caltech, > Grove - Berkeley), and they just so happened to invent rather some > innovative things like, oh, I don't know, solid-state memory (DRAM) and the > microprocessor (those are fairly important inventions, I would say). The > Cisco router was invented by a burst of innovation from Bosack and Lerner, > who just so happen to hold graduate degrees from Stanford. I could go on > and on. > > Look, my point isn't to tell everybody to go to college, or to tell people > that only the big schools matter. Not at all. Going or not going to > college is a personal decision that only the individual can make. And truly > it is the case the college is not right for some people. What I'm saying is > that a college degree does hold substantial value, even in a historically > informal industry like IT. If you choose not to go to college, that's > fine, just understand that you are giving up something of value. Now you > might decide that the degree is not worth the time and money it takes to do > it, or whatever, and that's a perfectly valid calculation for you to make. > But if you decide not to go, you shouldn't delude yourself into thinking > that you are not giving up anything of value, because you are. Maybe it's > not enough value for you, or, based on your personal circumstances, not > enough to justify a proper return-on-investment or whatever, but it's still > some value we're talking about here. > > > > > Chuck > > > > > > > > ""nrf"" wrote in message > > [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... > > > ""William Gragido"" wrote in message > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... > > > > Thats not necessarily true. Bill Gates is an excellent example of > > someone > > > > with limited education, who went on to be a force to be reckoned with > in > > > the > > > > business world. > > > > > > You have just provided a standard response - the Gates response. > > > > > > Several people have used that response against me. That's why I've > > > developed a standard counterresponse. It goes something like this (I > cut > > > and pasted it from the site I posted it before: > > > > > > "...One of the ironies of the tech industry is that while there are > > > indeed many tech-icons who do not hold a degree, these people > themselves > > > strongly prefer degrees out of job candidates they hire. For example, > > > surely we're all aware of the degree-less tech superstars- Bill Gates, > > > Larry Ellison, Steve Jobs, Michael Dell, and the list goes on. Yet > > > interestingly enough, if you look at the top management teams and Boards > > of > > > Directors of the companies they run, you will notice that almost > > invariably, > > > those guys are the only people there who have no degree. Everybody else > > > generally has at least one, if not several degrees, and usually from the > > > most famous colleges in the world - Harvard, Stanford, Berkeley, Yale, > > MIT, > > > Oxbridge, etc. You would think that if anybody would know the > limitations > > > of a college education, it would be somebody like Bill Gates. Yet Gates > > > himself has chosen to surround himself with an extraordinarily > > well-educated > > > management team, so that means that even a dropout like Gates realizes > the > > > value of the degree. If Gates thought the degree wasn't particularly > > useful > > > (and who in the world could make such a claim more credibly than him?), > > then > > > why didn't he just hire a bunch of dropouts to be the Microsoft > > management > > > team? So clearly there must be something good (very good) about that > > > degree." > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of > > > > nrf > > > > Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 3:10 PM > > > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > Subject: Re: MBA or CCIE [7:41809] > > > > > > > > > > > > I understand. But on the other hand, if you have ambitions to be the > > CxO, > > > a > > > > CCIE isn't going to cut it. Like you said, it's a case of what you > > want > > > > out of life. > > > > > > > > However, what I will definitely say is this. If you work for a > company > > > that > > > > is willing to finance your degree at night school, you're a fool not > to > > > take > > > > it. If you're not the one paying for it, you should get as many > degrees > > > as > > > > you can, because you never know what's going to happen in the future. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ""Wes Stevens"" wrote in message > > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... > > > > > A lot of it is what you want out of life. I will be 50 in 5 years > and > > am > > > > > perfectly happy playing with cisco's. I make more money then my boss > > > with > > > > > the mba does and have more job security. What happens if you get > laid > > > off > > > > at > > > > > 45 or 50 with a middle to upper management job? If you are not way > up > > > > there > > > > > in the corner office area you are going to have a hard time finding > a > > > job. > > > > I > > > > > work for a company in the fortune top 5 that is very stable. Yet > this > > > > > economy is hitting us also. They are going to cut my office way back > > > from > > > > > 500 people to 200 by the end of the year. They will offer me a job > in > > > > > Houston as they can always find a spot for a cisco network engineer. > > My > > > > boss > > > > > and a lot of other are really scrambling. There are no jobs in the > > local > > > > > market and less chances of them finding a place in another part of > the > > > > > company as they are cutting back everywhere. > > > > > > > > > > Just some food for thought. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >From: "nrf" > > > > > >Reply-To: "nrf" > > > > > >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > >Subject: Re: MBA or CCIE [7:41809] > > > > > >Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 14:37:51 -0400 > > > > > > > > > > > >""Drew"" wrote in message > > > > > >[EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... > > > > > > > Sean Knox wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I was actually heading towards my CCIE, but after getting my > > CCNP, > > > I > > > > > >am > > > > > > > > content with that for now and and getting more experience > > > > (fortunately > > > > > >I > > > > > >am > > > > > > > > not some new wide-eyed kid in the field and have been doing > this > > > > > >awhile). > > > > > > > > Congrats on your decision to pursue your MBA and I wish you > > luck. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I made a similar decision myself within the last few weeks. I > had > > > > > > > planned on pursuing my CCIE-Security, but realize that I don't > > work > > > > > > > enough with Cisco products on a daily basis, and certainly not > > with > > > > > > > routing in a complex way, to feel that I would deserve the cert, > > > even > > > > > > > if I attained it. I'm going back to school for my MS in CS, > > > starting > > > > > > > classes in June. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think in the long run, an advanced degree is more of a benefit > > > than > > > > > > > an advanced vendor cert. But thats just me. > > > > > > > > > > > >Exactly. Especially later in your life. Fiddling with Cisco boxes > > > might > > > > > >be > > > > > >cool now, but do you still want to be doing that when you're 50? > > > > Probably > > > > > >not, you probably want to be sitting in a director's chair ordering > > > other > > > > > >young guys to set up the systems. It's hard to win promotion to > that > > > > chair > > > > > >without an advanced education. > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at > > > > http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=42130&t=41809 -------------------------------------------------- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
