Fair enough. Thanks for elegantly depicting the real-world factors involved. I'll always bear a conceptual blind spot concerning individuals in that category, but I felt compelled to point out that the popular generalization, as usual, has issues where accuracy is concerned. I would never expect the business world to be fair, or expect HR professionals who don't specialize in IT (and, unfortunately, some who do) to accurately interpret the candidate-specific data they are confronted with. Since I'm constantly fighting the practice of jumping to ANY conclusion (and thereby revealing weaknesses that plague the conclusion-jumper's decision-making processes), I really can't pass up opportunities to clarify situations which are publically discussed such as the one we're addressing.
----- Original Message ----- From: "sakky" To: Sent: Sunday, April 21, 2002 1:24 AM Subject: Re: MBA or CCIE [7:41809] > ""Kevin Cullimore"" wrote in message > [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... > > A fair amount of people who focused their academic pursuits on "natural > > sciences"/mathematics work in the private sector. Some of them have jobs > > which apply concepts & concrete knowledge that was part of their > curriculum. > > Some of them pusued a masters because they could actually learn something > > about their field of interest (which can be profoundly hard to do within > > undergrad programs) or it helped advance their pursuit of compensation or > > responsibility. Some really competent Masters students opted to not pursue > > PhDs because of the prospects of divorce and minimal returns based on > their > > current job status. If they can't pass the quals, I'm not sure the > > conferring of the Masters is in order. Conversely, there are PLENTY of > good > > reasons to NOT let someone in a PhD. program even if they CAN or DO pass > > their quals. > > On the other hand, many of those master's degrees guys really were guys who > couldn't pass their quals. So whether you had a legitimate reason for > getting a master's degree or not doesn't really matter in terms of getting a > job or for professional prestige or whatever - you will be deemed 'guilty > by association' by being lumped together with a bunch of, shall we say, > rejects. > > Is that unfair? Yeah, it is. But that's life. Surely you realize that HR > and other hiring directors often make decisions based on what's on a piece > of paper, and you therefore have no chance to explain the details of your > situation to them. The fact is, you are judged by the people you associate > with. If you associate with a bunch of thugs and criminals, you shouldn't > be surprised when people think you are a criminal yourself. Now, I'm not > saying that master's degree holders are criminals, it's just an example I'm > using. I'm just saying that if you associate yourself in a group of people > for which there are indeed a large proportion on PhD failures, then people > will often jump to the conclusion that you are also one yourself. > > > > > > I've encountered plenty of cases where better experiences can be had with > > Mathematics BS grads than CS MS grads, because the math folk don't assume > > that four years of algorithms & programming (and ponentially many other > > topics except real-world microcomputer-based support & networking > > issues-diclaimer, I'm aware that that is changing at the painfully slow > pace > > that most curriculms adhere to when reforming themselves, but the damage > is > > done) entitle them to godlike status where their intuitions concerning > > technologies, formal systems and issues that they have had NO PRACTICAL > > experience with are concerned. As far as the CS folk in question are > > concerned, since they already know everything, they can be VERY difficult > to > > train. (I'm aware of the existence of exceptions, but they are not the > ones > > making laughingstocks of their respective IT groups, so they do not occupy > > as prominent a place in my consciousness) > > > > It's interesting that you align CS with engineering, since the > > knowledge-gathering aspect of CS adheres better to the rhetoric and ideals > > of the natural sciences ever could, due to the nature of the subject > matter. > > Well, then I suppose you would also find it interesting to note that the > vast majority of American universities (don't know about Europe) also lump > CS into their engineering departments, rather than into their science > departments . Surely there is a reason for this. > > > > > Dragging back in the original question, the CCIE somewhat affirms the > > ability to perform hands-on work and apply concepts in unfamiliar contexts > > with success slightly quicker than random trial and error generally > produce > > in a vendor-specific state-space. Its ameliorative influence upon your > > career is somewhat dependent upon Cisco's success, IT's success and your > > personal goals. I see high level networking jobs where a masters in > computer > > science is a prerequisite for having your resume read (very effecient, > > since it reveals two things: that human resource folk still misunderstand > > that you can sneak by a CS program without an acceptable understanding of > > how electrical patterns present on one computing device can magically be > > made to replicate themselves on a remote computing device through the > > wonders of networking, and that the employer in question is explicitly > > choosing to use a filter that will quickly reduce the numbers of resumes > > that have to actually be read, even though that might rule out some of the > > best candidates). Whether or not the hands-on and advanced conceptual > > knowledge are relevant to higher-level jobs is industry & even company > > dependent, but you can bet that if a company can make it irrelevant so > that > > they don't have to compensate you for that knowledge, they will. An MBA is > > supposed to provide you with the cognitive wherewithal to lead the overall > > success of business efforts, which in many cases requires leaders to delve > > into profoundly non-technical issues. If, following the completion of your > > desired course of study, you wish to deal with people & financial issues > > outright, by all means go for the MBA. The situation (besides, of course, > > hands-on) where not having a CCIE might hurt you is if you have to lead a > > team of them, and your role requires you to understand issues at their > level > > in order to communicate with them or make successful customer-related > > decisions. > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "nrf" > > To: > > Sent: Friday, April 19, 2002 11:55 AM > > Subject: Re: MBA or CCIE [7:41809] > > > > > > > > > > > > I'd tend to agree in traditional science fields like chemistry (my > > > > original major), but not in computer science/networking outside pure > > > > academia. I can look at an assortment of IETF leaders and find people > > > > anywhere from college dropout to PhD. Even some key academic > > > > researchers (not faculty) such as Scott Bradner have masters' > > > > degrees, not PhD's. > > > > > > But notice that was why I was restricting my discussion to only the > > natural > > > sciences and mathematics, where a master's degree may not be very > > positive, > > > and could actually be negative. Different rules apply to, say, > engineering > > > (I still consider CS to be more engineering than natural science). And, > > of > > > course, to business. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This isn't just the "Old Guard." A co-director of the IETF Routing > > > > Area, Abha Ahuja, died suddenly and tragically at the age of 27. She > > > > had a bachelor's degree. One of the Advisory Council members of ARIN > > > > got his appointment around his 21st or 22nd birthday. > > > > > > > > There are, however, people who are innovative architects and > > > > programmers in their 60s and possibly older. Not a networking person, > > > > but Grace Hopper was active technically until her death at 85. Talk > > > > about titles -- in her case, if we used some of the European forms, > > > > she'd have been Rear Admiral Doctor Hopper...not counting honorary > > > > doctorates. > > > > > > > > There's also the irrelevant PhD issue. Two esteemed colleagues, deep > > > > in routing theory, both have PhD's -- in physics. Neither of their > > > > dissertations had anything whatsoever to do with computer science. > > > > > > > > >or at least not as > > > > >high in esteem as you might think (master's degrees in business, > > > > >engineering, or in the the liberal arts are a different story). I > > don't > > > > >know about Europe, but at least in the US, a master's degree in > > > mathematics > > > > >(or any science) has the negative connotation of being a > PhD-failure - > > > the > > > > >guy entered a PhD program but couldn't cut it, so the school bestowed > > > upon > > > > >him a master's degree as a consolation prize. In fact, most of the > > > > >biggest-name math schools in the United States do not even offer a > > > > >terminal-master's degree program. According to USNews and World > > Report, > > > the > > > > >top 5 graduate math programs in the US in alphabetical order are > > > Berkeley, > > > > >Harvard, MIT, Princeton, and Stanford (Caltech is actually not > > considered > > > a > > > > >top5 program). The only one of those schools that may offer a > > terminal > > > > >master's degree in mathematics is Stanford, and I'm not even entirely > > > sure > > > > >they really do. I know Berkeley doesn't offer a terminal math > degree, > > > nor > > > > >does Princeton, Caltech MIT, or Harvard (Harvard does offer a > terminal > > > > >master's in Applied Mathematics, but runs it under its engineering > > > > >department - yes, Harvard actually has an engineering department). > > > Instead, > > > > >these schools grant master's degrees to PhD candidates who couldn't > > pass > > > > >their quals. So in some cases, that master's degree could serve > more > > as > > > a > > > > >hindrance than a help. For example, saying that you have a master's > > > degree > > > > >in math from Berkeley might impress some lay people, but every once > in > > > > >awhile, you'll run into some people who know what's up, and may start > > > > >thinking you're a washout. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >So the point is, in the US anyway, if you want to pursue graduate > study > > > in > > > > >mathematics, you should probably go all the way and get your PhD. > > > > >Otherwise, don't do it at all. Get your MBA or something like that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > >> Good Luck. > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> ""Antonio Montana"" wrote in message > > > > >> [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... > > > > >> > Hi all, > > > > >> > > > > > >> > Maybe this topic is discussed several times but I still can't > > decide > > > > >> wether > > > > >> > to go for the CCIE or to go back to a good business school for > > MBA. > > > > >> > > > > > >> > I am doing networking for 3 yrs now and can see that it's > getting > > > > harder > > > > >> to > > > > >> > find a good. Have all Cisco cert's except of the "lab" and some > > > others > > > > >> > Microsoft, Novell etc. and a Computer Science degree. > > > > >> > The problem is, that here, in europe, some CCIE's are doing jobs > > > like > > > > >> System > > > > >> > or Network Administration, which is indeed not well paid at all. > > > It's > > > > >just > > > > >> > like creating some user logins, assigning and administering IP > > > > addresses > > > > >> and > > > > >> > do some entries or changes on DNS or even Exchange Servers. > > > > >> > > > > > >> > Ok I understand that, it's better than being unemployed. > > > > >> > But is this a CCIE job ?? Really don't think so. > > > > >> > > > > > >> > I don't know when the telco market is going up again, but I > really > > > > think > > > > >> > about going to school and getting a management education. > > > > >> > Jobs for MBA's are still there. > > > > >> > > > > > >> > Who knows if and when the market will give back the CCIE's the > > > > >recognition > > > > >> > they earn ?!? > > > > >> > > > > > >> > So, should I stop my track towards the CCIE and go to the "dark > > > side" > > > > ?? > > > > >> > > > > > >> > What do you think guys ?? > > > > >> > > > > > >> > cheers > > > > >> > tony > > > > -- > > > > "What Problem are you trying to solve?" > > > > ***send Cisco questions to the list, so all can benefit -- not > > > > directly to me*** > > > > > > > > > > **************************************************************************** > > > **** > > > > Howard C. Berkowitz [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > Chief Technology Officer, GettLab/Gett Communications > > > http://www.gettlabs.com > > > > Technical Director, CertificationZone.com > > http://www.certificationzone.com > > > > "retired" Certified Cisco Systems Instructor (CID) #93005 Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=42129&t=41809 -------------------------------------------------- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
