You make many valid points. I appreciate your comments. I placed some comments inline.
"nrf" wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... > For example, in the not-too-distant past, the CCIE was really a quite solid > guarantee that a guy was a good networker. Maybe the guy didn't know, say, > BGP (because he was an old-timer who passed the exam when the lab didn't > have BGP and he never bothered to learn it since - this is another problem > with the cert, but I digress), but basically you could note that he had a > CCIE number and immediately take that to mean that he had a solid base of > practical networking experience. No longer. Now during job interviews, > whether you're a CCIE or not, you have to proceed further. For example, as > a contractor, I ran recruiting for several companies and I ran into a > significant number of candidates that held their CCIE who I would have > considered not solid at all. By significant, something like 10-15% of those > guys who had CCIE numbers over, say, 6000. I purposefully asked real-world > questions that I knew were not on the lab (for example, explain how T-1 > lines work, explain CEF vs. fast-switching) and I noted their responses. > Many of them slam-dunked the questions. But some seriously fumbled them. > And I mean seriously. One guy claimed that CEF was only available on the > GSR. I see your point about people not skipping the tech interview because of CCIE. And I also agree that it's a good thing. After all, when 'lab rats' (as you call them) are applying for jobs, it just makes sense that one would give a tough interview to weed them out. However, one must ask themselves "What is the purpose of the cert?" Just like a college degree in, say Computer Science. The BS in CS doesn't guarantee an employer that the person has experience, say, with PERL. However, the degree indicates that this person can learn and understand the logic of programming, etc. I don't think the purpose of the CCIE (or any Cisco cert) is to guarentee knowledge of absolutely everything in networking. That's not possible. However, I believe that it does indicate an advanced level of understanding of network principles as well as knowledge of specific technologies (EIGRP, HSRP, DLSw+, etc). So, as in your example of the person that didn't learn BGP because it wasn't required for the cert, I have to say "So what". That wasn't the point of the CCIE. The CCNP cert doesn't cover IS-IS, for example, but I would hope anyone with CCNP could sit down, read about IS-IS, know how to look up IS-IS related commands on Cisco's site, and then implement what needs to be implemented. That's, IMHO, the purpose of obtaining the cert. > It's certainly not a big joke, it's just that yes you really can pass the > lab without experience. Granted, you need dedication and you need money to > buy a home lab. > Exactly - you need practice equipment. So you don't need a real job that > provides hands-on equipment. You just need a lab, a lot of time, and a lot > of money for exam attempts (or a willingness to go into debt). But a > networking job? Not really, not to pass the lab. I understand your differentiation between real-world hands-on and practice lab (lab rat) hands-on. I truly do. But, again, it's like the college degree thing. If a company wants someone who has experience, they'll interview and ask questions that only seasoned professionals could answer. But, if they want someone with a certain level of knowledge, demonstrated ability to learn new things, and the ability to find resources and answer questions, then that could be a seasoned professional or someone that's certified (or someone with both). On the flip side of your argument, I've met people that are trying to get into networking from the telco side, and could explain in great detail how a T1 works, but couldn't explain HSRP (a very simple thing to understand and setup) to save their life. Doesn't mean their stupid, just not exposed to it. And the cert provides exposure to these things, whether "real world" or "lab rat" experience.... I mean, really, does it matter if you setup HSRP in a lab or in the real-world? I think not... HSRP is HSRP.... I guess, when it comes down to it, I feel if you (the hiring person) wants someone that can explain CEF, which models have software CEF, which have hardware CEF, which 6500 blades are fabric enabled and which aren't just by their model number, then you're not looking for anything but sheer experience. So why blame the cert for not providing that background to a person, when that's not the point of the cert to begin with? > > Two friends of mine, for example, are basically lab-rats (Ok, they > did have previous experience, but very little). They accomplished it by > basically borrowing my lab and all my books. They can't find decent work, > because they can't pass the newly tightened tech interviews. So they are > back doing sys-admin work, which is what they had been doing before allt > his. It depends on what kind of questions the "tightened down" interviewers are asking. CCIE has never covered "everything". You're suggesting that the new interviews cover more thorough knowledge and require more hands-on work experience to get through. And again, I re-state my opinion that "that's not what the cert is for". I mean, my boss used to do the hands-on (we're talking years of hands-on) network design/implemenation of the very network I work on everyday now, but he's still blown away that I (the lowly CCNP) am constantly blowing him away with my in-depth knowledge of how the stuff works... He's floored that within one day of finding out about IOS Server Load Balancing on the 6500s, had it setup and in place and it worked like a charm! I (even before finishing CCNP) worked next to engineers with years (5+) of experience (with Cisco) and felt sorry for them when they asked me why they were seeing multicast traffic in their sniffer traces (knowing full well they were running EIGRP). That's what the CCNP means to me..... if, in the interview my boss would have asked me some bullsh*t about "How many bits are used for framing on T1 compared to used for actual data?", "Which model routers support CEF and under which IOSes?" "What's the speed of the backplane on the 2900XL, 5500, and 6500 switches?"..... I would have been screwed..... But he didn't, because that crap doesn't matter!!! You can look that up in 30 seconds and have an answer.... and I've proven (to everyone I've ever worked under in the network field) that you don't need to know everything if you know where to find and learn it. Mike W. Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=43349&t=43306 -------------------------------------------------- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
