Okay... final comments (inline) ..... but this time they're all in agreement (imagine that, people actually exchanging "blows" and instead getting upset and childish, we managed to patiently see what each other was saying and came to a common understanding..... what a concept.... I applaud you "nrf" =)
"nrf" wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... > On the other hand, there is a major difference between somebody who admits > he doesn't know the answer, but can probably look it up, and somebody who > boldly states something that is flatly wrong. For example, with that guy I > interviewed who claimed that CEF can only be run on a GSR, clearly this was > a case where he was trying to snow me. Now I admit, I was trying to trick > him (I deliberately pretended that I knew nothing about networks because I > wanted to see what kinds of things he would say if he didn't think I was a > networking guy myself), and boy, was he tricked. I think you've hit the nail on the head. Regardless of ones knowledge, some people won't admit when they're wrong nor will admit when they don't know. Those people may as well have no knowledge or experience because I wouldn't hire them either. My "mentor" is a gentleman that I watched go from a part time helpdesk operator to MSCE, then to CCNA/CCNP then CCIE. He was (and still is) a major influence on me. He's a very down to earth guy, who doesn't have a mean (or deceitful) bone in his body. He has always been the type to say "I don't know, but I'll check into it"..... and he was never the type to say "Well, I'm a CCIE, so you'd better bow down, etc. etc."..... As someone who is looking to hire a good worker, I totally understand (and like) your approach (of feigning ignorance to test ones knowledge and moreso attitude). Kudos. > I think we're both dancing around the main issue here. It's really not so > much whether a CCIE happens to know or not know this-and-that fact. That > is only a symptom of a much larger problem, which is that the CCIE, probably > because of its history of success, has fostered a 'attitude of arrogance' > about it. What I mean by that is that there are still a significant number > of people, both CCIE's and CCIE-wanna-be's, who think that the cert is the > end of the road in terms of learning and professional development. There > are a significant number of people who have an attitude that once they pass > their lab exam, three things occur: > #1 - they are automatically entitled to a high-paying networking job > #2 - they are automatically more knowledgeable than anybody who doesn't hold > that cert (for example, that one dude with the CEF and the GSR - he > basically stated, not in so many words, but in effect, that since he was a > CCIE and he thought I wasn't, then his answer must be right). > #3 - they can coast in terms of their professional development at least for > the near-future, and possibly for the rest of their career. For example, > one of my buddies once said that after he passed the lab, he wasn't ever > going to pick up another networking text book ever again, and I hope he was > kidding, but the way he said it, I'm not so sure... Again, I think you've nailed it........ Unfortunately many times people get one or all three "symptoms" you described above. I did read one post here from someone saying something to the effect of "what's all this talk about money..... I though it was doing something YOU LIKE to do." I think that: although there are some who love networking for what it is that fall into the trap of having the bad attitude you pointed out, I think mostly the people who feel entitled to a high salary, etc, are the people that aren't in networking for the love networking..... Kinda like people that become doctors or lawyers because of the $$$...... they end up hating it because of all of the continuing reading, learning, etc..... Whereas people who went that way because they genuinely like it don't hate it.... (I know it's a generalization and there are exceptions, but I think this is a fairly accurate statement.) > So I don't think anybody has any serious problem with a guy who might become > a lab-rat CCIE, but admits that he is one and still diligently continues to > learn. Likewise.... many people with years of experience also get an attitude and end up in the same boat...... the "attitude sword" cuts both ways... (affects both those with experience and certs) > And naturally you will find even old-school CCIE's who don't know > everything and admit this. I don't have any problem at all with such > people, and I doubt anybody else would either. The problem comes with guys > who pass and think that they now have all the answers and therefore they > don't really need to learn anything or work hard anymore. In short - they > get arrogant, and that's just not cool. Unfortunately, I know one such person who went thru a bunch of Oracle certs so he could get a high paying job..... He got an attitude, hated doing DBA stuff, and now sits around unemployed.... Oh well...... Good thread.... I'm glad I was a part of it..... Mike W. PS: I was just thinking about the irony of my "argument" here..... When I set out to get certified, I wanted the cert mainly to get into the job market (was moving from desktop/server support work)... and the CCNA actually got me a good 6 month contract with a huge multinational company whose spot on my resume is "priceless" (hint hint). During that 6 month contract, I finished my CCNP. Here it is over 2 years after I started CCNA and I'm just now gearing up for CCIE written and have been working hands-on with equipment for a while now.... By the time I get around to taking (and hopefully passing =) the lab, not only will I have the cert but I'll also have a few years of the hands-on that people look for.... I let my CCIE studies drive me to learn things I wouldn't otherwise learn on the job (i.e. SR/TLB, SNA over DLSw+, etc), but at the same time I learn things at work that I wouldn't never get close to using for the lab (i.e. IOS Server Load Balancing, converting 6500s from Hybrid to Native and back, etc)... so when it's all said and done, I used certs to get jobs to get experience which helps me get the next level of certs that helped me get a better job for more advanced experience, etc... and in the end, I'll (hopefully) be someone with a professional reputation for quality work and knowledge instead of simply being know as someone with a CCIE (or simply someone with years of experience).... Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=43367&t=43306 -------------------------------------------------- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
