NRF, Thanks for posting what's on my mind. THE reason for my original post was not to belittle the value of experience in relation to certifications, but to raise the awareness of the public in general about the insult that certified people have to endure from "more certifiable" individuals who themselves don't have the guts to go and take the test, which should be a walk in the park for them, and get certified as well. What's really sad about it is that these individuals seem to have forgotten how they started in this profession. When i left my job as an engineer responsible for one of the Navy's bases, I recommended to my boss to hire this "newbie" (not even a lab rat as he had NO lab equipments to play with, not even a router simulator) because I knew that he was smart enough to apply his knowledge based on all the things he had to study to get his certs. All he needed was a mentor to get started. And that's what I did, although I only had less than two weeks to show him the ropes. I did it because I owe much more to people who have been kind to me in the past. As Howard said, pay it forward. My own version of it is, "Good works is all you can take with you when your time is up!" The beautiful laurel with your number will have to be left behind like everything else.
Last of all, there are two ways to gain experience. 1) By true physical,emotional,psych experience. 2) By VICARIOUS experience. The second is the main difference between us humans and the other species because this allows us to pass on our experience so others behind us don't have to reinvent the wheel. Thus it is the duty of the recepients to refine the wheel, which then leads to progress. Again this also follows another virtue in life, which is that of GIVING. I'll end this post with this... "Since when are you less by giving?" Regards, Elmer ----- Original Message ----- From: "nrf" To: Sent: Sunday, May 26, 2002 12:57 AM Subject: Re: Jeff Doyle's official response re: lab rats [7:45001] > Like I said, things might be fine for guys like us who have stable jobs and > good prospects. But again, for those who might not be in that kind of a > position whose financial position is getting a bit precarious and therefore > need to find decent work, it doesn't help when you have guys going around > 'talking smack' about the program. > > I will reiterate, I am not talking about myself. My career is going just > fine. But that doesn't mean that I don't sympathize with the guys who I > know to be good workers but who are having difficulties in this economy, and > I'll continue to advocate policies that help them out. While I don't want > to muzzle those trash-talkers because I don't believe in censorshop, I > believe they are indeed harming the image of the program and the industry at > large and ideally some way would be figured out to stop them from doing so. > This extends to those training schools who promise a CCxx cert and a > high-paying job for minimal work. The more that HR thinks that all us > network engineers are just a bunch of lazy-asses whose skills really aren't > that special ( according to these schools, you can apparently get those > skills with just a few weeks of time at a training school), the worse off > we're all going to be. > > > ""Scott H."" wrote in message > [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... > > So far paying the bills hasn't been a problem. I tend to stick with the > > companies that have good reputations for the way they treat their > employees. > > True, at some point in the future things will change but I'll deal with > that > > when it happens. > > > > ""nrf"" wrote in message > > [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... > > > True, but in the short-run, it does the program and anybody who pursues > it > > > no favors. I think I can distill your arguement to basically, "...in > the > > > long run, the quality of the CCIE program will inevitably "out"'. My > > > response is, like the economist John Maynard Keynes famously said: > "...in > > > the long run, we're all dead." It's all well and good to stick to the > > > principle of saying that stupid HR people and hiring directors who don't > > > understand the program aren't somebody you would want to work for > anyway, > > > but your principles don't exactly help you very much in paying the rent. > > > > > > > > > ""Scott H."" wrote in message > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... > > > > If the HR people (or hiring manager) are that uninformed, as a CCIE, > it > > > > would not be a place I would want to work. People tend to flock to > > places > > > > that they are valued the most. A company who doesn't understand the > > value > > > > that a CCIE a brings to the table is not one that I would waste my > > > precious > > > > oxygen on. Let's be honest here, the vast majority of tech > departments > > > out > > > > there have a good idea that the CCIE is not another MCSE. In my part > of > > > the > > > > world, I have not run into a hiring manager yet that doesn't > understand > > > the > > > > value of a CCIE. > > > > > > > > You know da*n well that guy has no chance of ever passing the lab > exam. > > > > That is the beauty of the program, he can talk all he wants but he > will > > > > never be able to join the club. With the recent changes Cisco has > made > > to > > > > the exam format, their are no "fluff" points left. There isn't a > class > > > you > > > > can take out there that will get you through the exam. No shortcuts, > no > > > > braindumps, no cheating. I for one like the odds of keeping people > like > > > him > > > > on the sidelines. > > > > > > > > > > > > ""nrf"" wrote in message > > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... > > > > > You say that guys like this have no connection to me. Boy, I wish > > that > > > > were > > > > > true. If it were, I really would be able to mind my own business. > > > > > > > > > > Let's presume that I am a CCIE (I may or may not be). The connection > > is > > > > > simply this. HR people and other people in charge of hiring will > > read > > > or > > > > > hear comments like what was stated by that guy. They will then > > conclude > > > > > that maybe the certification isn't particularly valuable at all. > > > > > Therefore the kind of 'trash-talk' these lab-rats (or even wanna-be > > > > > lab-rats) engage in has a negative effect on the perception of the > > cert. > > > > > For example, a hiring manager might see a comment like that and > think, > > > > well, > > > > > this guy who just barely got into networking is talking so > confidently > > > > about > > > > > being a CCIE in no time flat, which possibly means that the cert > must > > > not > > > > be > > > > > very hard, which therefore means that perhaps it's not as valuable > as > > it > > > > > seems, so why should I prefer such certified people when I look for > an > > > > > employee? > > > > > > > > > > As I'm sure you would agree, perception is often stronger than > > reality. > > > > It > > > > > doesn't really matter if you're good if nobody thinks you're good. > If > > > > > people in power start hearing enough of this kind of talk, then > > > perception > > > > > of the cert will inevitably start to change in a negative way. > That, > > my > > > > > friend, is the connection. It is an unfortunate reality of life > that > > we > > > > are > > > > > judged based on the actions of our community. Call it > > > > guilt-by-association, > > > > > call it whatever you want. Just don't call it untrue. > > > > > > > > > > ""Scott H."" wrote in message > > > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... > > > > > > Why does it always have to be a contest of who's is biggest? If > > this > > > > guy > > > > > > thinks he can pass the lab then by all means take the class and > give > > > the > > > > > lab > > > > > > a shot. I'm sure Cisco would be happy to collect the money from > him > > > > each > > > > > > time he takes it. I guess what I'm trying to say here is take > care > > of > > > > > your > > > > > > own business and don't let all the other crap get to you. People > > like > > > > > this > > > > > > just add to the statistics of mass failure. > > > > > > > > > > > > The real problem with this reasoning is that you end up lumping > > people > > > > > into > > > > > > the same category because they don't have 10 years of experience. > > Too > > > > > many > > > > > > times I have been told that my certs are only "paper" because I > > don't > > > > have > > > > > > this experience. My response is simple, "mind your own friggin > > > > business." > > > > > > Just because I don't have 10 years of experience doesn't mean I'm > > any > > > > less > > > > > > of a person. And guess what? Eventually I will have 10 years of > > > > > experience > > > > > > and people will still say I don't "really" know what I'm doing. > > > > > > > > > > > > By the way, would your quest for the holy grail really happen if > you > > > > were > > > > > > only gonna make $15/hr? I don't think so. > > > > > > > > > > > > ""nrf"" wrote in message > > > > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... > > > > > > > That's an excellent way to sum it up. Too much has been written > > > about > > > > > the > > > > > > > value (or non-value) of the CCIE, or any cert for that matter. > > What > > > > > > > everybody should instead be aiming for is real knowledge. If a > > cert > > > > > helps > > > > > > > you acquire this knowledge, then so be it. But the cert is by > no > > > > means > > > > > > the > > > > > > > end of the road. It is the extreme idea held by certain > people > > > who > > > > > > think > > > > > > > that all they have to do is pass the lab and money will > > > automatically > > > > > fall > > > > > > > out of the sky that I object to. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For example, here is one particular post from another message > > board > > > > that > > > > > I > > > > > > > participate in. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "I passes [sic] my CCNA few months ago. It was an OK test, but > I > > > > almost > > > > > > > failed it. I was planning on taking my CCNP and CCIE, but I > didnt > > > > think > > > > > I > > > > > > > could do it. So I decided to look for a training course. Anyway, > > > > people > > > > > > that > > > > > > > are trying to pass CCIE or are planning on taking CCIE, I wan't > to > > > let > > > > > you > > > > > > > guys know that I found a great school for Cisco training. It is > > > called > > > > > > [name > > > > > > > deleted]...Wahoo, soon I will pass my CCIE and will be making > over > > > > 100K" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lest anybody thinks I am making this quote up, you can email me > > > > > privately > > > > > > > and I will give you the exact message board where you can find > > this. > > > > A > > > > > > guy > > > > > > > who barely passed the CCNA and now wants to ge the CCIE so that > he > > > can > > > > > > make > > > > > > > a high salary - needless to say, it is this kind of attitude > that > > > > gives > > > > > > the > > > > > > > lab-rat such a bad name. Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=45071&t=45001 -------------------------------------------------- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
