Well, we're following an SMTP version of the film "Of Mice and Men"... Elmer ----- Original Message ----- From: "Priscilla Oppenheimer" To: Sent: Monday, May 27, 2002 9:44 PM Subject: Re: Doyle on Lab Rats [7:44611]
> Don't you guys have a life!? :-) It's Memorial Day for heaven's sake. This > thread has been going on for wayyyyy too long. > > Priscilla > > At 06:37 PM 5/27/02, nrf wrote: > >""Michael L. Williams"" wrote in message > >[EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... > > > "nrf" wrote in message > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... > > > > Well, I don't know if it's a waste of time. Consider this. There > might > > > be > > > > some newbie guys who were all gung-ho about grabbing a bunch of certs > > > > because they believed that by doing so they would just be handed a > > > > super-kick-ass job (no doubt some training school told them so). Now > > > > perhaps after reading these threads they may be getting a whole new > > > > appreciation for exactly what certs can and cannot do for them, and > they > > > may > > > > be rethinking their whole strategy, and perhaps even stop studying and > > > > instead concentrate on building their experience first. > > > > > > Actually, in the case you pointed out, if someone stops studying to > > > concentrate on building experience first, then I believe you have done > >those > > > people a great disservice. > > > > > > Many people use certifications as a "foot in the door" into a network > >career > > > from other careers. We've agreed (many times) that just because one gets > >a > > > certifications that their not entitled to a high level job with lots of > > > money, but at the same time, a certification can be the difference > between > > > getting that foot in the door or not. If ones goal is to use > >certifications > > > to prove a certain level of knowledge and abilities in an attempt to get > > > into the field, then steering them in the direction of "get experience > > > first, then worry about certs later" is exactly the opposite of what > could > > > potentially help them the most. > > > >Aha. Here is the fundamental difference between you and me. > > > >The fact is, certifications are not really an effective foot-in-the-door, > >contrary to popular belief. Yeah yeah, would-be flamers, I just got your > >attention, didn't I? I can already hear you guys reaching for your > >keyboards. But hear me out. > > > >The fact is, certs are indeed useful to get publicly posted jobs. You know, > >the jobs where you have to send out a resume which then gets parsed through > >HR who look for certain keywords. Those keywords are often technologies, > >but are also often certs. It is indeed the case that to get your > >'foot-in-the-door' in these kinds of jobs, you need present the proper > >keywords, which often means presenting the right kind of certs. > > > >However, consider this. CNN and other reputable news organization have > >stated that over 90% of all available jobs are never posted publicly, > >especially nowadays, and especially in the tech industry. Study after study > >has shown that far and away the most common and preferred method for > >companies to find people is through employee referral. Surely you've heard > >the phrase "It's not what you know, it's who you know." > > > >In fact, surely you're seen all those books and all those websites that tell > >people how to find jobs. What's the first piece of advice that they always > >give? The first thing they always say is "use your network". It's not "get > >proper certs" or "type up a really good resume". Those things are like 5th > >or 6th on the list, but never first. The first thing is always "use your > >network". Why is that? I think this speaks to the importance of having > >the proper contacts. It truly is far and away the most effective way to > >find work. > > > >And the simple fact is, when you get jobs this way, certs become a > >relatively minor consideration. When the boss comes down and asks his > >people whether they know somebody with such-and-such skill, your colleague > >generally doesn't care whether you hold a cert or whatever - he either > >thinks you're good (because he's worked with you before and he knows that > >you're good) and will therefore recommend you, or he doesn't and he won't. > >And if you do get recommended by your colleague, you have effectively > >leapfrogged HR and their whole keyword-parsing step. Employees usually > >don't want to professionally embarrass themselves by bringing in somebody > >that they don't think is good, so the fact that you did get brought in for > >an interview is already a powerful quality-control mechanism that the boss > >can rely upon. Is it a perfect quality-control mechanism? No of course > >not, there is no perfect mechanism. But it's been shown to be a lot more > >reliable than anything else, and certainly more reliable than certs are. > >The proof of this is simple - companies continue to rely on such references > >for over 90% of their positions, which probably means that it's highly > >effective, otherwise they should have stopped doing things this way by now. > > > > > >What that means is that if you got brought in for one of these 'hidden' jobs > >(where such jobs are the vast majority of the available jobs), the boss > >already knows that you're probably pretty good (because otherwise it is > >unlikely that you would have been referred in the first place), and can > >proceed with the interview based on that information. For example, he may > >run a few more tech questions by you just to double-check your tech skills, > >and he may ask you social questions to see if your personality is OK for the > >job (but again, obviously your personality was OK with whoever referred you, > >so if that's true, then it is probably true that your personality should be > >OK with everybody else). But the point is, a lot of the preliminary work in > >ascertaining whether you're a good worker or not has already been done. > >Certs now become only a very minor consideration. If you already got to > >this step, having or not having a cert is unlikely to play a huge role. > > > > > >Quite frankly, I know few if any people in my circle of peers who haven't > >used this "trick" (ir you want to call it a trick), at least occassionally. > >Ever since the shi* hit the fan in the year 2000, all of my contracts have > >been obtained through references, as is the case of most of the guys I know > >(either contracts or full-time work). Makes perfect sense too, as over 90% > >of the jobs out there are obtained this way, not publicly. For example, I > >have a friend who's simply an Oracle Database God (worked for Oracle in the > >mid-80's, and actually played basketball with Larry Ellison a few times). He > >holds zero Oracle certs. But he gets Oracle contracts time and time again > >simply because people keep recommending him because they all know he's good. > >I, for example, would have absolutely no problem in recommending him for any > >Oracle db work. > > > >So I would agree with you that certs are indeed important for those publicly > >posted jobs. But again, that's at most 10% of the jobs out there. So I > >question why people place so much emphasis on credentials that are really > >only useful in landing the minority of jobs out there. Why fixate on that > >10%? Wouldn't it be more efficient to be going after that 90% instead? > > > >So again, this is another reason why experience is so valuable. People > >think that experience is useful just for technical skills. Yet, that is > >only part of it. Another part is developing acceptable general work > >attitudes and maturity, like for example learning just how important it is > >to simply show up to work on time (I discussed this at length in a previous > >post). But yet another part is being given the opportunity to meet people > >and build your contact list. The more people you meet, the better chance > >you have in being able to get access to that vast majority of available > >jobs. > > > >So what does this mean for the novice? Obviously what I've stated above is > >most applicable to guys who already have a bit of experience and therefore > >already have some opportunities to build their contacts. But there is > >definitely some applicability to novices as well. It could mean a number of > >things. If you already have a non-network job in a company, but you want to > >be the network guy, then make time to go hang out with the network guys. > >Make yourself known to them. You can show them how enthusiastic you are, > >you can tell them that you're looking for a career change and could you > >maybe hang around them while they're doing network changes, etc. Stuff like > >that. > > > >Or it could mean not to turn your nose up at some low-level work because you > >think it's beneath you. A lot of novices complain that they can't find > >entry-level work. This is false. What they actually mean to say is that > >they can't find good-paying entry-level work. Everybody can find work as a > >volunteer for example, at a local charity or a church or something like > >that. Look at it as a way of building your professional contacts. For > >example, let's say you set up a simple network for your local church, > >strictly as a volunteer. The priest there will probably remember you and > >later when some parishioner happens to say that he's looking for a network > >guy, the priest might interject that he knows Joe Shmoe who did a nice job > >here, and why don't you call him up, etc. etc. That's the way the game is > >played. > > > > > > > > > So you could say > > > > that in these cases, these threads have not only not wasted people's > >time, > > > > they have actually saved people's time. > > > > > > > > Then of course, there are those guys who've already made up their minds > > > > about what they want to do and don't want to hear what anybody else has > >to > > > > say (I call them the "certification religion" people). But I'd like to > > > > think that some people do indeed maintain an open mind about these > kinds > > > of > > > > things. > > > > > > I am by no means a "certification religion" person. You speak of > > > maintaining an open mind but from your comments, it's easy to see that > >your > > > blinders are on as tightly as can be. > > > >Careful, buddy. You just came dangerously close to a personal attack. Note > >that I've never personally attacked you. I'll let it slide this time, but > >don't put words in my mouth. If you want my opinion on something, why not > >just ask me, instead of assuming that I think a certain way? > > > > >You only see things from your > > > point-of-view, and no amount of logical reasoning will convince you that > > > your point-of-view isnt' always the best for other people. You fail to > > > realize and admit that there are many different ways that certifications > >can > > > help and can be used in ones career path. > > > >Did I say that? Please point to a quote where I've specifically said that > >certifications absolutely cannot help ones career path. > > > >What I've said is that certifications do not help as much as many people > >think they do. And experience helps more than people often think it does. > >It's a matter of emphasis. When I've said that certifications are not as > >valuable as experience, notice that I never said that certs have zero value. > >Just less than what is commonly believed. > > > >Again, see above. Certs are most effective in landing publicly posted jobs. > >Unfortunately, that's at most 10% of the available jobs. Now I'm not saying > >that people should ignore that 10%, but it seems that people should also be > >aware that there is this 90% out there also. > > > > > > >You assume that by encouraging > > > one to work on experience and worry about certs later is the best thing > > > someone can do, but many times it's not. I knew 9 months before we moved > >to > > > a much bigger town that I wanted to change over into networking. So > given > > > my experience in desktop/server admin, etc and knowledge of networking, I > > > saw that getting CCNA/DA and working on CCNP would look much better to an > > > employer looking to hire someone into an entry level Cisco job than just > >my > > > experience alone. In that case the certification was a sign to the > >employer > > > that I understand what the OSI is... understand the difference between > > > switches and routers.... understand how to log into a router and get into > > > enable mode and do basic commands. That's exactly what the certification > >is > > > meant for, and that's exactly how I used it. Now, I'm much more into > > > networking, have been doing it a while, and am studying for CCIE > >lab....... > > > At this point, I'm not doing a cert for anyone else but me. To help > >improve > > > me... > > > >Look, I'm obviously not your father, and I don't want to tell you how to run > >your life. But surely you would agree that getting a job because you know > >the right people, and because they know that you're good, is a more > >effective method of finding work. Again, like I said, that's the way you > >play the game. To do otherwise is to severely restrict your set of career > >choices (to that 10%). See above. > > > >Now, note, none of this is to say that certs don't hold value. Certs do > >hold some value. I'll say it again, certs do have some value. But so does > >having a PalmPilot full of good contacts and references. > > > > > > > > > > > > So it's all, again, just a matter of perspective. > > > > > > Mike W. > ________________________ > > Priscilla Oppenheimer > http://www.priscilla.com Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=45195&t=44611 -------------------------------------------------- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
