Again, I'm not saying that interconnections with an IP wholesaler would have solved the whole problem. Clearly when voice/data customer circuits all ride to the same CO which is destroyed, then you are going to have some lost connectivity no matter how you bake it.
What I'm saying is that not only was a lot of endpoint customer connections lost, but a lot of backend callrouting capabilities as well. In addition to restoring customer connections, Verizon also had to rebuild backend callrouting capabilities - and it is this specific area that could have been helped with an IP wholesaler. In that sense, things could have been restored faster because that would have meant that Verizon would have had to spend less time restoring backend callrouting and therefore would have had more resources to restoring endpoint customers. ""Geoff Kuchera"" wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Actually from my point of view I was talking about private data > circuits. The company I used to work for provided customers with credit > card processing. We ahd a customer in Manhatten that for months after > 9-11 got dropped on there butts because Verison was cleaning up there > switches (data circuits). Also Verison decided that even though this > particular customer was supposed to have redundant circuits through two > different CO's that they were going to take them down in the middle of > the day on a weekend. (This was a Major Retail Chain that did well over > 2 million credit card transactions per day) And because they were not a > customer with more than 32 T3's they didn't bother to notify them in > advance. We had to pry it out of a tech rep. > > Plus being that the switching capacity that Verison lost was in the WTC > and the circuit ends were there also I don't see how a deal with Ibasic > would have helped much. There would have been nothing to connect to > Ibasic. Remember that the World Trade Centers were just that the center > of the phone grid for that section of town. > > The comments before about the internet were just to point out that all > voice and data services generally ride the same fiber and if it's cut > and you don have another connection it won't matter if your > voice/data/internet you'll be down. > > And yes Verison did an amazing job of keeping what they had together > while they rebuilt the rest... > > -Geoff > > -Geoff > > > nrf wrote: > > Actually that is not what I was talking about at all. > > > > I was not looking at things from the enterprise standpoint, but rather from > > a provider standpoint - and specifically from Verizon's standpoint. > Verizon > > lost a lot of voice-switching capacity during 9-11, and while they > > admittedly and heroically rebuilt most of it quickly, they could have also > > recovered much of their functionality if they had relationships with an IP > > wholesaler like Ibasis. My analysis had nothing to do with what > enterprises > > could do about 9-11 (for it is indeed true that enterprise voice and data > > circuits tend to terminate at the same CO) to utilize of wholesalers but > > rather what a provider could have done to utilize wholesalers > > > > Also, perhaps this was just an oversight on your part, but few if any of > the > > wholesalers actually use the Internet for any of their capacity. IP is not > > the same as the Internet. The Internet will probably always suffer from > > problems related to security and/or reliability, because of the cherished > > anonymity of users (including those who would wreak havoc by creating > > viruses or DoS attacks) and because of the lack of a true central authority > > which is good because it allows for innovation, but you must admit is > > detrimental to reliability. Private IP networks can be properly secured > > and engineered in a way that the public Internet never can be. > > > > > > ""Geoff Kuchera"" wrote in message > > news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > >>Actually in the case of 9-11 if your internet was still working it was > >>because your data connection went through a Central office that was not > >>affected by the 9-11 incident. Keep in mind that data and traditional > >>voice still ride for the most part the same carrier services. Our > >>company lost several customers data connectivity due to the 9-11 > >>incident. Incidentally the connectivity loss occured about a week after > >>the buildings dropped when Sprints backup generators at the Manahtten CO > >>failes due to the long term load. We also lost a major connection to > >>one of our service providers that just happened to run out of the WTC. > >>Fortunatly in that case we had two redundant connections in other parts > >>of the country. > >> > >>So saying that the internet was up when the voice channels weren't would > >>be a big over statement. Voice was up for the whole rest of the country > >>and so was the internet. Unless you happened to live on Manhatten and > >>didn't have backup power and a satellite connection. > >> > >>-Geoff > >> > >>nrf wrote: > >> > >>>Buggy/unreliable software is indeed the same anywhere. But when > > > > combined > > > >>>with buggy/unreliable OS's, now we're talking about a solution that is > >>>REALLY buggy and unreliable. For example, if your software is only > >>>guaranteed to run at 3 9's, and your OS is also only guaranteed to run > > > > at 3 > > > >>>9's, then overall we're talking about a less-than-3-9's of a solution. > >>> > >>>You can actually run packetized voice very reliably, and not just for > > > > toll > > > >>>bypass (although it is definitely true that toll-bypass is the easiest > > > > and > > > >>>most mature kind of packetized voice to do). The key is that you have > > > > to > > > >>>design things in a certain way to maximize your reliability. Many > >> > >>carriers > >> > >>>like SBC use packetized voice with soft-switch signalling in certain > > > > parts > > > >>>of their network, and then you have packetized voice wholesalers like > >> > >>Ibasis > >> > >>>that have massive available voice capacity and a good reputation for > >>>reliability. There was a huge amount of serious talk after 9-11 for > >> > >>Verizon > >> > >>>and other carriers to contract for backup voice capacity through > > > > somebody > > > >>>like Ibasis in case their voice switches got destroyed again - as during > >>>9-11, people saw that while traditional voice service was severely > >> > >>affected, > >> > >>>packet networks like the Internet were still functioning, so in these > > > > kinds > > > >>>of circumstances, you could say that packetized voice might actually be > >> > >>more > >> > >>>reliable than regular voice. But again, it takes very careful design > > > > to > > > >>>achieve this kind of reliability. > >>> > >>> > >>>""Chuck"" wrote in message > >>>news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >>> > >>> > >>>>sure. ok. agreed. > >>>> > >>>>OTOH, buggy / unreliable software is the same, no matter whose platform > > > > it > > > >>>>runs on. A long time ago in a galaxy far away I was able to successfully > >>>>crash Sun Unix boxes several times through sheer ignorance. one was in > > > > the > > > >>>>Sun Sys Admin training class I was taking, the rest were Sun boxes that > >>> > >>>Big > >>> > >>> > >>>>Brokerage Firm had installed in the office where I worked. Proof that > >>> > >>>there > >>> > >>> > >>>>ain't no such thing as "foolproof" because this here fool can break just > >>>>about anything ;-> > >>>> > >>>>BTW, you have just ht on the major reason for NOT doing packetized > > > > voice. > > > >>>Or > >>> > >>> > >>>>maybe just limiting it to toll bypass, while keeping your PBX. Sometimes > > > > I > > > >>>>think the only real selling point for AVVID is that is "kewl" The > > > > biggest > > > >>>>selling points for Windows way back when were the screen savers and the > >>>>games. MCSE = Microsoft Certified Solitaire Expert > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>""nrf"" wrote in message > >>>>news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>>Well, this kind of thing cuts both ways. A reseller I know is trying > > > > to > > > >>>>>sell AVVID and is on dangerous ground precisely because CM is on > > > > Windows > > > >>>>and > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>>the potential customer has had some very bad experiences with Windows > >>>>>servers due to reliability issues and so forth. The customer is > >>> > >>>deciding > >>> > >>> > >>>>>whether to go with AVVID or a traditional PBX, and the fact that AVVID > >>> > >>>is > >>> > >>> > >>>>so > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>>Windows-centric is a significant minus, and in fact could be the whole > >>>> > >>>>basis > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>>for losing the deal, because the customer has to know that his phone > >>>> > >>>>system > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>>is going to always be up without any dithering around. Yes, yes, you > >>> > >>>can > >>> > >>> > >>>>do > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>>things like clustering to improve the reliability of CM, but the simple > >>>> > >>>>fact > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>>of the matter is that Windows has a well-founded reputation for > >>>>>unreliability when compared to UNIX, and when you're talking about > > > > phone > > > >>>>>systems, unreliability is definitely something that a potential > > > > customer > > > >>>>>does not want to hear. Not at all. This is why you rarely see any > >>>> > >>>>vendors > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>>of enterprise software (like DB's, ERP, CRM, SCM, etc. etc.) that don't > >>>>>offer a UNIX version - because just like a phone system, these are > >>> > >>>crucial > >>> > >>> > >>>>>applications that just have to reliable. > >>>>> > >>>>>""Chuck"" wrote in message > >>>>>news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>>for whatever reason, Cisco and Microsoft are partnered for a lot of > >>>>> > >>>>>things. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>>Call Manager for *nix??? hahahahahahahahahaha > >>>>>> > >>>>>>IIRC the last Cisco management software presentation, just about > >>>>> > >>>>>everything > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>>is on NT or Win2K boxes these days. > >>>>>> > >>>>>>I believe it's called Market Share - there are far more Microsoft > >>>>> > >>>>>certified > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>>folk than *nix certified folk. Try selling AVVID when you also have to > >>>>> > >>>>>tell > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>>a customer that he has to hire a *nix capable individual or retrain > >>> > >>>his > >>> > >>> > >>>>>>existing Microsoft capable people. Same for the management platform. > >>>> > >>>>same > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>for any of the security related software products. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>>""sergei"" wrote in message > >>>>>>news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>Makes sense, - M$ products need it more... > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>DAve Diaz wrote: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>Remember cisco have no money just $21 Billion dollars in the bank, > >>>> > >>>>so > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>no > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>new hardware for a while, no unix in a security lab that is > >>> > >>>absurb, > >>> > >>> > >>>>>>>>Dave > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>From: "markh" > >>>>>>>>>Reply-To: "markh" > >>>>>>>>>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >>>>>>>>>Subject: Re: CCIE Security Lab [7:17848] > >>>>>>>>>Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 00:33:52 -0500 > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>really? > >>>>>>>>>-- > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>I have an official statement from Cisco that says that there > >>> > >>>will > >>> > >>> > >>>>>be > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>>no > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>UNIX, only NT. > >>>>>>>>>>I was there and it's true. > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>MS > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>_________________________________________________________________ > >>>>>>>>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at > >>>>>> > >>>>>>http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. 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