Try this to start. http://www.yandina.com/combInfo.htm
Josh On Mar 30, 2015 8:54 AM, "Richard N. Bush via CnC-List" < cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote: > I have been reading this thread about the wiring and the charging avidly, > but I have no training in electrical engineering and I am having difficulty > figuring out how all this comes together... is there a way someone could > summarize this in layman's (rank beginner) terms? I would like to know how > the theory and the real wiring/charging system come together on the boat, I > guess on Edd's boat in this instance, but, of course, I am looking to see > how I can apply it in understanding and upgrading the system on my boat as > well..... I recognize that the systems are going differ from boat to boat, > but surely the principles must be the same? Many thanks.... > > Richard > 1985 C&C 37 CB; Ohio River, Mile 596; > > Richard N. Bush > 2950 Breckenridge Lane, Suite Nine > Louisville, Kentucky 40220-1462 > 502-584-7255 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Rick Brass via CnC-List <cnc-list@cnc-list.com> > To: 'Peter Fell' <prf...@gmail.com>; cnc-list <cnc-list@cnc-list.com> > Sent: Mon, Mar 30, 2015 8:38 am > Subject: Re: Stus-List New Wiring Diagram Draft (Edd Schillay) > > In a 12 volt setup, 10.5v of differential between the fully > charged/charging bank (12.6 to 14.4v) and the depleted bank would probably > mean that the depleted bank has something wrong with it - maybe some > shorted cells. > > In a 24 volt setup with 12 cells, the fully charged/charging bank would be > at 25.2 to 28v. The 10.5v differential would put the discharged battery at > 1.5v per cell - seriously discharged. The high voltage differential would > normally cause a high current flow, so I assume the Echo Charge is > programmed to limit the current because of the heat from high current. > > If I recall correctly, the Blue Sea 12v ACR that I have on Imzadi is > designed to not open if either of the connected batteries is below > something like 10.5 or 11 volts. That prevents current flowing from a good > battery bank into a bad one. > > Rick Brass > Washington, NC > > > > *From:* CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com > <cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com?>] *On Behalf Of *Peter Fell via CnC-List > *Sent:* Monday, March 30, 2015 12:01 AM > *To:* cnc-list@cnc-list.com > *Subject:* Re: Stus-List New Wiring Diagram Draft (Edd Schillay) > > The graph indicates it's the other way round ... when the voltage > difference is high, the amperage output is low. I don't understand why they > would produce a graph that goes out to a voltage differential of 10.5 > volts! > > I kinda get what they are saying .... but it's almost like there's a > piece of the puzzle missing in the manual. > > Peter Fell > Sidney, BC > Cygnet > C&C 27 MkIII > > > *From:* Knowles Rich <r...@sailpower.ca> > *Sent:* Sunday, March 29, 2015 5:28 PM > *To:* Peter Fell <prf...@gmail.com> ; cnc-list Cnc-List > <cnc-list@cnc-list.com> > *Subject:* Re: Stus-List New Wiring Diagram Draft (Edd Schillay) > > Hmmm... When the voltage difference between a charging source and battery > being charged is high, the amperage flow is high as well, and vice versa. > > The Operation Manual for the EchoCharge says: > > "When the input voltage is 13.0/25.5 volts DC or higher, echo-charge > automatically switches ON. The LED glows a steady green. When the input > voltage is lower than 13.0/25.5 volts, the echo-charge automatically > switches OFF, and the LED blinks green. The output voltage of echo- charge > is limited to 14.4/28.8 volts. When it reaches 14.4/28.8 volts, the charge > current will decrease, maintaining a float condition. The starter battery > will be fully charged without overcharging. > No load current drain on the house bank is less than 50 milli-amps. > If the input voltage is above 14.4 volts (or 28.8), output will be limited > to a maximum of 14.4/28.8 volts. > > My interpretation is that when the output voltage of the echo-charge > reaches 14.4 volts, it assumes the start battery is full and lowers the > applied voltage to float level, around 13.5. This reduces the charge > current and keeps the electrolyte in the battery where it belongs. > > I suggest looking at this paper for more insight into the three stage > charging process. > http://xantrex.com/documents/Inverter-Chargers/Freedom-458/MS20070308_3-stage-whitepaper.pdf > > In any event, I have had an Echo Charge unit on my boat since before > 2000 and have had the same start battery since then. The house batteries, > two 400 series Surrette batteries, finally reached end of service after 14 > years. I have installed echo charge units as part of rewiring the primary > systems on many boats over the years, and, other than a couple of units > that died due to water exposure, they all perform very well and the owners > don't have to do any switching at all to maintain their battery systems. > > Rich Knowles > Nanaimo, BC > INDIGO LF38 > For sale in Halifax, NS. > > > > > On Mar 28, 2015, at 10:41, Peter Fell via CnC-List < > cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote: > > It also says when the output voltage reaches 14.4 volts, it reduces > the output current to maintain a float condition. There's also a curve in > the owner's manual that relates difference in voltage between banks to > output amperage. When the voltage difference is low, the amperage is high > and it decreases as the voltage difference increases. > *From:* Josh Muckley via CnC-List <cnc-list@cnc-list.com> > *Sent:* Saturday, March 28, 2015 10:26 AM > *To:* C&C List <cnc-list@cnc-list.com> ; Rich Knowles <r...@sailpower.ca> > *Subject:* Re: Stus-List New Wiring Diagram Draft (Edd Schillay) > > Rich, > Great explanation but don't the other combiners turn off once the > starting battery is greater than or equals to the house? As was pointed > out to me the echo-charge is simply a voltage follower with a limit of > 14.4v. At least one relay style combiner I've seem has an adjustable high > voltage shutoff. > Josh > On Mar 28, 2015 10:51 AM, "Knowles Rich via CnC-List" < > cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote: > > I didn't realize I'd start such a lengthy discussion. Sorry for the > late reply. Work... > > I like the EchoCharge unit for the following reasons: > > When you combine batteries for charging using an automatically actuated > combiner, or by manual switching, all the batteries combined will receive > the same voltage at their terminals. While each battery will absorb > different amounts of amperage depending on their state of charge, a battery > that is fully charged will start losing electrolyte if it is continuously > provided excessive voltage when it is combined with a battery needing high > voltage to efficiently recharge it. > > In a well designed system, the engine start battery should be reserved > for just that and nothing else. Although it will need to deliver high > amperage to the starter, it will do so for only a few seconds to start an > engine in reasonable condition, and that energy can be quickly replenished, > usually within a few minutes. An average size 27 or 24 fully charged > battery in good condition should be capable of starting a 30 hp diesel many > times before requiring recharging. Once recharged, the presence of > excessive voltage as charging of house batteries continues will cause the > start battery to lose electrolyte. If this process is repeated often or > long enough, the start battery will eventually lose enough fluid to be > unable to start the engine. This situation is exacerbated by the use of > smart alternator controllers and multi step AC chargers which cause higher > charge voltages to be present than those produced by internally regulated > alternators and simple single voltage chargers. > > Directing all charge capacity direct to the house battery, and using the > EchoCharge or a similar device to maintain a single purposed, isolated > engine start battery, ensures that the start battery only receives enough > charge voltage to recharge it to full capacity. Barring a failure, there > will always be reliable power to start the engine. Switching should be > provided to enable emergency use of the house battery to start the engine > or the engine start battery to provide house power. > > I have also used EchoCharge units to provide charge power to windlass > batteries installed in the bow near the windlass. That saves a stack of > money for expensive heavy copper wires to feed the windlass from the main > house battery. If you install an EchoCharge, make sure it is in a dry, > ventilated, relatively cool location. It is not waterproof, the principal > cause for failure I have seen. > > Multiple output AC chargers are OK to use but should be carefully chosen > and installed. If batteries are in parallel, only one charge leg should be > connected to that bank. If an automatic combiner is used, only one battery > charging source is required. For systems I design, I use a single output > smart charger to charge the house battery and rely on devices such as the > EchoCharge to distribute charge current as needed to start and other > auxiliary batteries, one device for each battery. That charger is connected > to the same point in the system as the alternator, as are any wind > generators and solar panels on board. > > As an aside, I'm intrigued by the discussion about installing ever > larger battery banks. Is this based on real calculated daily need, > inefficient charging systems or other factors? Average daily power > consumption for our boats including refrigeration, modern nav gear, sailing > instruments, lighting and entertainment should not exceed 150 A/hrs per 24 > hour period and generally will be much lower. A well maintained 450 A/hr > house battery bank should be plenty in my opinion. More than that is > excessive weight that simply slows down the boat and extends time between > longer charges. > > Controversy is welcomed! > > Rich Knowles > Nanaimo, BC > INDIGO LF38 > For sale in Halifax, NS. > > > > > Rich Knowles > Nanaimo, BC > INDIGO LF38 > For sale in Halifax, NS. > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Email address: > CnC-List@cnc-list.com > To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the > bottom of page at: > http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com > > > ------------------------------ > _______________________________________________ > > Email address: > CnC-List@cnc-list.com > To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the > bottom of page at: > http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com > _______________________________________________ > > Email address: > CnC-List@cnc-list.com > To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the > bottom of page at: > http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com > > > _______________________________________________ > > Email > address:CnC-List@cnc-list.com > To change your list preferences, including > unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of page > at:http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com > > > _______________________________________________ > > Email address: > CnC-List@cnc-list.com > To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the > bottom of page at: > http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com > > >
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