Well you are wrong. I know all of those and some of them QUITE well. And still getting cocoon going is a major hassle. Yes, I can deploy the distribution but I mean getting my own application going. Just a hello-world app.
-- robert ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gustavo Nalle Fernandes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2003 5:56 PM Subject: RES: Cocoon is too complex for consumption? > Cocoon is a powerfull _framework_ used to develop XML applications and > not an out of the box product. As a framework, Cocoon architecture must be > well understood in order provide extensions that satisfies a particular > need. > IMHO, Cocoon´s leaning curve is not steep, assuming that the -DEVELOPER- > knows XML, XSL, Namespaces, DTD, SCHEMA, HTTP,Servlets and JAVA/OOP. > > > > -----Mensagem original----- > De: Robert Simmons [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Enviada em: sábado, 25 de janeiro de 2003 14:13 > Para: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Assunto: Re: Cocoon is too complex for consumption? > > > I think you might already be there. Currently the concept of cocoon is a > great one. I create a piepline and cocoon shunts it from a > to b, applying the transforms and so on. Great development effort. Pardon > the language but its a shitty user effort. Just look at > one of your paragraphs in the linked archive. > > <quote> > "If we don't do this, not only Cocoon will get bigger and bigger (and > start appearing more as a distribution of technologies, than a > framework), but users will find it harder and harder to modify it for > their specific needs." > </quote> > > And that is the crux of the problem. Whoever is heading the project seems a > bit confused. People dont want to MODIFY cocoon. They > want to USE cocoon. They want to install cocoon's mechanics, then drop in > their pipelines and go. Cocoon is now trying to do all > sorts of things that dont need to be done imho. The number of features is so > staggering that gettign started is near impossible. But > as I get more into the product, I find myself saying, petulantly, "But I > just wanted the pipeline!" And that is all that I wanted. > To have a pipeline. To be able to say to cocoon, "Yeah, well ... in your > pipeline whenever someone hits URL x, go to pipeline Z and > run my custom class (which connects to ejbs and so on) and transform it with > stylesheet Y and give it back to the user. > > "But you arent understanding how cocoon works Robert!" BINGO!! You hit it > right there on the head. I dont want to understand how it > works. As a user Im not interested. When reading the JBoss documentation, I > skip over all the architecture stuff and the development > stuff. As a user, this stuff is irrelevant to me. Object oriented > programmign is supposed to guarantee to provide me with an > interface and then implement some functionality. How? Who the hell cares? Im > a user of it. My prime computing expertise is in the > back end side of EJBs and issues that pertain to them. I want to USE cocoon, > not develop on it. > > Possible solutions to this. > > 1) Rearchitect cocoon to implement some sort of deployment mechanism, such > as COB. The problem here is that then you have to get > that working with application servers and so on. The other problem is > inertia. Gettign the masses of developers to learn a > new-unstandardized deployment mechanism. > > 2) MERGE it with tomcat in the way JBoss has merged with tomcat. I download > JBoss and they are like "well tomcat is included." I say > "cool" and drop in my wars and go. If cocoon had a basic mechanism install > that could be installed into tomcat than the situation > would be aleviated. Users of the product drop their wars into tomcat as > normal with a sitemap file in the WEB-INF directory and > their special generators an so on in the classes directory. Cocoon magically > wires together the pipeline. No worrying about how to > configure cocoon or what properties to give it or so on. Thats left to > advanced users under the heading of "customizing your > install". > > At any rate I can see the learning curve for this product is steep. And > cocoon is mainly going o suffer from people like me. People > whoe would love to use it but dont have a month to blow trying to get a > technology to work that is merely suppsed to be an EASY way > to develop a polymorphic presentation layer. > > Lastly, flaming is not an option. These are the opinions from a newbie > comming into cocoon. Readers of this list can flame all they > want but that is just hiding from the very real problems. > > -- Robert > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Steven Noels" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2003 3:43 PM > Subject: Re: Cocoon is too complex for consumption? > > > > Jeff Turner wrote: > > > > > http://wiki.cocoondev.org/Wiki.jsp?page=BlocksDefinition > > > http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=xml-cocoon-dev&m=101603335007960&w=2 > > > http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=xml-cocoon-dev&m=101732982704553&w=2 > > > > oh, but that is unfair since you are a Cocoon committer and you have > > easier access to such things... not! ;-) > > > > </Steven> > > -- > > Steven Noels http://outerthought.org/ > > Outerthought - Open Source, Java & XML Competence Support Center > > Read my weblog at http://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/ > > stevenn at outerthought.org stevenn at apache.org > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Please check that your question has not already been answered in the > > FAQ before posting. <http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/faq/index.html> > > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > For additional commands, e-mail: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Please check that your question has not already been answered in the > FAQ before posting. <http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/faq/index.html> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > For additional commands, e-mail: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Please check that your question has not already been answered in the > FAQ before posting. <http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/faq/index.html> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > For additional commands, e-mail: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > --------------------------------------------------------------------- Please check that your question has not already been answered in the FAQ before posting. <http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/faq/index.html> To unsubscribe, e-mail: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> For additional commands, e-mail: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
