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Brook Humphrey wrote: | Nope I never said nobody uses it. It is used mostly by developers which we | have quite allot of but the normal every day user will not use it. Period. | Yes it is the same for vi and mc. My only point in mentioning them is that | they are not 100megs worth of bloat. They maybe reach 5 or 6 megs if they get | left out for room my point is that emacs is much larger source of bloat. An | amount of space that could be used for other packages to make the desktop | users experience more useful.
They are still on the 9.2 CDs, they weren't left out. Just that mc is not installed by default. Is it so difficult to either select mc during install or tell the newbie to "urpmi mc" ? What is your point ? It was a decision by Mandrakesoft to not install mc by default, we may not agree with it but whining in Cooker is not going to change it. This discussion was here already and now it is too late for it anyway.
| you are correct about mc of course but it still is a great tool when your | system is having major problems and you need to get in and do some work in | rescue mode.
If you are going to use rescue, you should probably know your way around without needing mc. Not that it is a bad tool, but tinkering around in rescue by a newbie not knowing what he/she is doing is risky at best (I know this well - have to support my girlfriend over the phone 1000km away in case that something breaks on her machine).
| I suppose the new contrib package may obsolete this (mklivecd) | as then you could have a bootable version of fluxbox or wimea running | mandrake on the cd and then do your stuff from there. it would be slower but | more pretty to look at.
Uh ? Since when is good looks for a rescue disk the most important thing? You really have weird priorities. I would rather toss the X from it and include tools you are going to need in the case of disaster. Good looking but useless rescue disk is not going to help save your system.
| yes possibly but the majority don't use this either. All I'm saying is with | all the griping this is definitely not an essential package that needs to go | on the first 3 cd's the developers will know hot to get it also they cant be | that daft or linux would not be were it is now.
Brook, this is pure handwaving. Do you have numbers for the "majority" thing? Or are you generalizing just from what you and few people around you are using ?
| Nope I was not whining. Somebody else asked were the space was going not me. | I've been rolling my own cd's since at least 8.0 or so so I don't really | care.
Well, then why do you complain about missing mc (and it is not even missing) when you do not care ?
| It is very easy to rid the distro of fat for me. But somebody else | asked were the fat was coming from and I answered him in a frank way. Maybe | others don't like to hear it but it is true.
Well, that was not a frank answer. You just picked up on packages you do not use/like. More correct answer is running something like :
ls -l | sort -r -n -k 5 | head -n 30
on each CD. E.g.
CD1 (download edition), in the first 30 lines, there is just koffice, gnucash and gimp from the "non-essential" category. The rest is kernel, X or mainly KDE stuff.
CD2 - larger than 10MB are just these : ~ 43546290 Sep 18 12:59 OpenOffice.org-libs-1.1-0.rc4.2mdk.i586.rpm ~ 32090639 Sep 19 11:31 mozilla-1.4-13mdk.i586.rpm ~ 25619822 Sep 11 23:48 tetex-2.0.2-10mdk.i586.rpm ~ 20075542 Sep 11 23:54 xemacs-21.4.14-1mdk.i586.rpm ~ 15409630 Sep 5 14:07 kdeedu-3.1.3-9mdk.i586.rpm ~ 15004841 Sep 18 12:54 OpenOffice.org-1.1-0.rc4.2mdk.i586.rpm ~ 11565922 Aug 6 21:00 fonts-ttf-big5-1.0-20mdk.noarch.rpm ~ 11028220 Sep 4 18:40 enlightenment-0.16.5-14mdk.i586.rpm ~ 10261577 Jul 29 17:09 kde-i18n-fr-3.1.3-1mdk.noarch.rpm
E.g. Xemacs is just 20MB, not 100MB, as you said.
CD3 - over 10MB is just mandrake-doc, OO help files, some fonts and OMNI print drivers (these are largest - 18MB).
So it is not so simple to just pick up few packages you do not use/like and say they are bloat. If any of these were left out, you would get even more people complaining.
| I do agree with allot of your points above accept for the server stuff. I use | mandrake for servers and it is invaluable for that but hey I just add what I | want and make it default also so still no foul for me.
I need the server stuff too, but I could find it on the Mdk servers in case that I have to download it. On the other hand a semi-newbie in need of kernel headers or source for something like a Nvidia or ATI driver has a problem. He may or may not know about urpmi and network repositories, but he will for sure find some website telling him to install kernel source if he wants to install the drivers, because this is so common task. It is not an ideal solution, but this would be a better compromise than randomly picking things and declaring them "bloat".
Jan
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