Dear Francesco,
On 2/19/2019 10:18 AM, Francesco Beretta wrote:
Hi,
I agree with Martin's definition of phase and point of view of not
"connecting a discussion about "phases of ideas" with "phases of
Physical Things".
I earlier thought myself that ideas, in some ways, could have 'phases'
but it seems more suitable, in the way of modeling adopted by the CRM,
to say that ideas (in the sense of propositional objects or of
concepts/types — and what about symbolic objects ?) exist as such, are
identifiable as such, and do not change in their identity over time.
It seems to be our mind, our belief (CRMinf I2 Belief), our mental
state (Issue 359: mental state), that can evolve, i.e. the substratum
carries new ideas, our classification of concepts can change, our
belief, etc. but this would be about changing of mental state not
about changing of the ideas themselves, as such. Would this be the point ?
Yes, this is one possible and valid interpretation. In this case, it is
not the idea that evolves, but the people develop derivatives and adopt
them. My question was also about the identity conditions of those
collectively supporting such evolving ideas. May be they are as
difficult to confine as the ramifications of derivatives of ideas. We
would need examples in which people systematically document phases of
ideas, in order to understand what is a reasonable scope and good
practice in respective scholarly domains. I suspect however, that the
number of ideas in this way analyzed may be so small that it is marginal
for us for the time being.
Would then, it this is correct, Mental state (not existing yet as
class – Issue 359) and Belief I2 be subclasses of Exxx Phase ?
Yes, let us explore that. I'd like first to come up with independent
definitions, and then see how they fit.
Another issue would be to ask if a E74 Group can have phases. Althogh
the identity of the group remains the same, it can have different
'behaviours', strategies, situations, etc. This is of course related
to social life, to an ongoing, virtual CRMsoc extension. But insofar
as 'Phase' is modelled as high abstraction level class in CRMbase
itself, wouldn't be appropriate to consider also phases in the life of
groups ?
Yes, indeed. Examples will be the starting point.
If yes, then we would need one property pointing from the temporal
entity 'Phase' to the object concerned by the specific appearence or
characteristic identifying the phase. But E74 Group and E18 Physical
Things do not belong to the same class, right? By the way I was
wondering why E74 Group is not subclass of Legal Object – E72. But if
it was, this wouldn't arrange things, I assume, because, ont the one
side, having phases in not the intension of the Legal Object class
and, on the other side, there's the E90 Symbolic Object subclass there
which wouldn't seem to have 'phases'. Or does it have indeed ?
If there is something common the Actors and Physical Things, that is
interesting. Let us model bottom-up, and first understand what "phase"
would mean for Groups, and what for Physical Objects separately.
The question is also, if the Mental State (or I prefer "Mental
Attitude") is actually what makes a Group to have "phases", and that
poses the critical question of collective mental states, which may even
be regarded as a bad idea in a basically materialistic model as ours.
All the best,
Martin
All the best
Francesco
Le 18.02.19 à 20:40, Martin Doerr a écrit :
Dear Martijn,
On 2/18/2019 5:10 PM, van Leusen, P.M. wrote:
Dear Martin,
Would you want to tie the existence of a phase exclusively to E18
Physical Things? One can imagine phases in the development of ideas
as well....
Yes to both. As always, we do not model the term, here "phase", but
try to define a distinct concept we can associate with a clear-cut
"behavior". Physical Things can be thought of as having a simple
trajectory through space-time: Any change makes the previous
disappear. Therefore, substantial evolutionary steps can be
represented with a begin and ending on a time-line.That is a concept
I can perceive as a sort of "phase". Therefore the label.
The evolution of ideas, as any other immaterial thing, does not make
previous ideas disappear. I will be very happy to discuss what phases
of ideas may be confined to, whose they are, what sense of progress
they have, and how we perceive the social effect of ideas we would
associate with phases.
Because of the above considerations, I suggest not to connect a
discussion about "phases of ideas" with "phases of Physical Things"
(which include humans!!). I do not suggest that phases of humans are
restricted to material aspects. In my proposed definition, they may
be due to mental developments, as long as they characterize
substantially the being.
All the best,
Martin
Martijn
On Sun, Feb 17, 2019 at 8:54 PM Martin Doerr <mar...@ics.forth.gr
<mailto:mar...@ics.forth.gr>> wrote:
Dear All,
Here a first attempt to define "phase":
Exxx Phase
Subclass of: E2 Temporal Entity
Superclass of:E3 Condition State
Scope note:This class comprises phases during the existence and
evolution of an instance of E18 Physical Thing characterized by
an appearance, constitution or a behavior distinct from that in
other times of its existence, or distinct in the evolution of
things of comparable kind, such as the nestling, fledgling,
juvenile and adult forms of birds, but some kinds of phases may
also be consequence of incidental changes such as accidents.
Best,
Martin
--
------------------------------------
Dr. Martin Doerr
Honorary Head of the
Center for Cultural Informatics
Information Systems Laboratory
Institute of Computer Science
Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH)
N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton,
GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece
Vox:+30(2810)391625
Email:mar...@ics.forth.gr <mailto:mar...@ics.forth.gr>
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Dr. Martijn van Leusen
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Archaeology
Poststraat 6, 9712ER Groningen (Netherlands) / phone +31 50 3636717
Chair, Examination Board for Arts, Culture and Archaeology / Chair,
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Academia page <https://rug.academia.edu/MartijnvanLeusen>
--
------------------------------------
Dr. Martin Doerr
Honorary Head of the
Center for Cultural Informatics
Information Systems Laboratory
Institute of Computer Science
Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH)
N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton,
GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece
Vox:+30(2810)391625
Email:mar...@ics.forth.gr
Web-site:http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl
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------------------------------------
Dr. Martin Doerr
Honorary Head of the
Center for Cultural Informatics
Information Systems Laboratory
Institute of Computer Science
Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH)
N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton,
GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece
Vox:+30(2810)391625
Email: mar...@ics.forth.gr
Web-site: http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl
