I agree. This is p72: This property associates an instance(s) of E33 Linguistic Object with an instance of E56 Language in which it is, at least partially, expressed.
A mountain is surely made of a molehill here. Can a name be expressed in a language? Yes. Can someone and recognize this and document it? Yes. Does this happen all the time? Yes. Should the standard express it yes. We already agreed this. That is why it is in the rdfs. But in practice this makes it hard for people to apply it. So the proposa to please make it part of the standard so people can exchange information. On Thu, 10 Nov 2022, 8:45 pm Robert Sanderson, <azarot...@gmail.com> wrote: > > Hi Martin, > > No one is proposing anything other than P72. Please stop creating issues > where none exist :) > > "The Big Apple" is a name for the Place which is also known as "New York > City". > Does anyone disagree that "The Big Apple" is in English with the precise > semantics of P72, or that it is not a Name for that Place? > > Rob > > > On Thu, Nov 10, 2022 at 1:31 PM Martin Doerr via Crm-sig < > crm-sig@ics.forth.gr> wrote: > >> Dear Gordon, >> >> "The Library of Congress has only recently stopped assigning gender to >> the referant of a name", >> >> That is interesting! >> >> I'd kindly ask for your expert opinion, about the "language" of a name. >> >> We had introduced the language property of a title because of the >> frequent cases of words of a natural language and their translations. >> >> Here, my question is: >> >> A) In library practice, do you associate a name with a language, and what >> would be the rules. >> >> George wrote: "He has a transliterated name: Abū l-Walīd Muḥammad Ibn >> ʾAḥmad Ibn Rušd . Is that his name in Arabic or English or no language? I >> don't know. Both? Maybe. I'm not a scholar of philosopher's names and it's >> not my province to judge. This is not the domain of the ontologist but the >> specialist in onomastics or the appropriate discipline. " >> >> I absolutely disagree with that. Can transliteration to another script >> change and produce a language-specificity? That is definitely an >> ontological question. Otherwise, we have no concept at all for this >> property. >> >> My example of Joshua had another purpose: The spelling and pronunciation >> "Josua" is the one used in German, but not exclusively. "Joshua" in English >> (and?), may be Yeshua <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yeshua> in Hebrew >> written in Latin script? If this is the case, they are variants shaped and >> used in different language groups. That would justify a >> language-specificity. >> >> B) If the meaning of the language property we are seeking for is not the >> language of the name, but the suitable use in a language group of the name >> for the named instance, then, it is a subproperty of P1 and not P72. Such >> as "is typically identified in English by...etc. That *is *an >> ontological question. >> >> All the best, >> >> Martin >> >> On 11/10/2022 1:21 PM, Gordon Dunsire wrote: >> >> All >> >> A librarian expresses an initial opinion: >> >> What about gender of a name? E.g. "Gordon" is male; "Gordana" is female. >> The Library of Congress has only recently stopped assigning gender to the >> referant of a name, which has resulted in howlers like "Robert Galbraith" >> (pseudonym of J.K. Rowling) is a male because the name is 'male'. >> >> RDA: resource description and access is an implementation of the IFLA >> Library Reference Model (entity-relationship version). Names and titles are >> given equal treatment; the only difference between a 'name' and a 'title' >> is that 'title' is the traditional word for the 'name' of an information >> resource. Since LRM/RDA has four 'resource entities', we have 'title of >> work', 'title of expression', 'title of manifestation', and 'title of >> item'; all other entities have 'name": 'name of place', 'name of >> time-span', 'name of agent', etc. >> >> This discussion exposes a further difference, but it is not absolute. A >> 'title' is usually composed of words, etc. taken from a natural language: >> "Ceci n'est pas une pipe" uses French words; "The treachery of images" uses >> English words; "La trahison des images" is back to French; "The wind and >> the song" is back to English ... On the other hand, a 'name' is usually >> composed of words, etc. that have no other use in natural language. But >> there are many counter-examples, and the distinction may not exist in a >> specific language group (e.g. Chinese?). >> >> Although RDA has a property for 'has language of nomen' ('nomen' being >> the generic term for 'name/title', 'access point', and 'identifier'), the >> expectation is that it only has utility for 'title', but not 'name'. >> >> The sibling property 'has script of nomen' has utility for names and >> titles. It is important for transliterations. >> >> On 09/11/2022 20:02 GMT George Bruseker via Crm-sig >> <crm-sig@ics.forth.gr> <crm-sig@ics.forth.gr> wrote: >> >> >> Dear Martin, >> >> I don't see an ontological problem here. One name can be used by / in >> many languages. If it is, that can be documented. >> >> >> >> The question was not if names can belong to language, or if langauges >> create names. It was how this is unambiguously defined. >> >> >> It isn't our job as ontologists to unambiguously define the instances of >> things in the world. This is for the domain specialists. >> >> >> >> >> The example below is what I feared. The fact that the arabic script is >> mainly used for Arabic, does itr make a *transcript *of an English name >> "Arabic?" why not Farsi? I ask here for the Librarians to express their >> opinion. >> >> >> Who documents the object, documents their knowledge and, hopefully, >> thereby, the state of affairs in the world. >> >> I don't understand the Farsi aspect of the above question. Why >> would transliterating a name into English from Arabic make it Farsi? >> Librarians? >> >> Here's a person with a name: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Averroes >> >> His name is ابن رشد in Arabic and also أبو الوليد محمد ابن احمد ابن رشد. >> >> With E33_E41 we can say that. Without it, we can't. >> >> His name in English is usually Averroes and also he is known as Ibn >> Rushd. >> >> With E33_E41 we can say that. Without it, we cant. >> >> He has a transliterated name: Abū l-Walīd Muḥammad Ibn ʾAḥmad Ibn Rušd . >> Is that his name in Arabic or English or no language? I don't know. Both? >> Maybe. I'm not a scholar of philosopher's names and it's not my province to >> judge. This is not the domain of the ontologist but the specialist in >> onomastics or the appropriate discipline. >> >> >> >> >> Why is Douglas Adams not "German"? I would use it in German exactly in >> this form. >> >> >> Then put in the KB for this name 'has language English' and 'has language >> German' and the problem is solved. >> >> >> >> >> But "Adams" I think is a last name exclusive to English, as Dörr to >> German. >> >> What is the language of "Martin", "Martino", of >> >> Martin: Identical in English, Spanish, French, Dutch, German, Norwegian, >> Danish, Swedish? >> >> >> If that is what the expert in onomastics thinks, yes. Not an ontological >> issue. We provide the semantic framework, they do the researching. >> >> >> Martino in Italian, Rumanian? >> >> From Wikipedia: "Joshua". >> >> *Josua* or *Jozua* is a male given name and a variation of the Hebrew >> name Yeshua <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yeshua>.[1] >> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josua#cite_note-1>[2] >> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josua#cite_note-2> Notable people with >> this name include: >> >> - Josua Bühler <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josua_B%C3%BChler> >> (1895–1983), Swiss philatelist >> - Josua de Grave <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josua_de_Grave> >> (1643–1712), Dutch draughtsman and painter >> - Josua Harrsch <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josua_Harrsch> >> (1669–1719), German missionary >> - Josua Hoffalt <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josua_Hoffalt> (born >> 1984), French ballet dancer >> - Josua Järvinen <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josua_J%C3%A4rvinen> >> (1871–1948), Finnish politician >> - Josua Koroibulu <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josua_Koroibulu> >> (born 1982), Fijian rugby league footballer >> - Josua Heschel Kuttner >> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josua_Heschel_Kuttner> (c. 1803–1878), >> Jewish Orthodox scholar and rabbi >> - Josua Lindahl <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josua_Lindahl> >> (1844–1912), Swedish-American geologist and paleontologist >> - Josua Maaler <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josua_Maaler> >> (1529–1599), Swiss pastor and lexicographer >> - Josua Mateinaniu <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josua_Mateinaniu> >> (fl. 1835), Fijian missionary >> - Josua Mejías <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josua_Mej%C3%ADas> >> (born 1997), Venezuelan footballer >> - Johann Josua Mosengel >> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_Josua_Mosengel> (1663–1731), >> German pipe organ builder >> - Jozua Naudé (disambiguation) >> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jozua_Naud%C3%A9_(disambiguation)>, >> several people >> - Josua Swanepoel <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josua_Swanepoel> >> (born 1983), South African cricketer >> - Josua Tuisova <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josua_Tuisova> (born >> 1994), Fijian rugby union player >> - Josua Vakurunabili >> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josua_Vakurunabili> (born 1992), >> Fijian rugby union player >> - Josua Vici <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josua_Vici> (born 1994), >> Fijian rugby union player >> >> Following scripts, only *יְהוֹשֻׁעַ >> <https://www.behindthename.com/support/transcribe?type=HB&target=Y%3Ahwos%5Eu%5E%22a%5E>* >> would be Hebrew, but Yeshua <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yeshua> >> English? >> >> >> This is a question for the knowledge base. The English speaker writing >> this article thinks that "Josua" applies to these people. It is up to them >> to instantiate an instance of the class, call it Hebrew and then assign it >> as a name of those individuals. If someone wants to dispute this, they can >> use negative properties. I don't know if the above wikipedia article is >> true or not, but I would like to be able to represent that data in the KB >> so that I could try to find out. >> >> So, not sure why that's a blocker. >> >> Best, >> >> George >> >> _______________________________________________ Crm-sig mailing list >> Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig >> >> >> >> Cheers >> >> Gordon >> >> >> >> -- >> ------------------------------------ >> Dr. Martin Doerr >> >> Honorary Head of the >> Center for Cultural Informatics >> >> Information Systems Laboratory >> Institute of Computer Science >> Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) >> >> N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, >> GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece >> >> Vox:+30(2810)391625 >> Email: mar...@ics.forth.gr >> Web-site: http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Crm-sig mailing list >> Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr >> http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig >> > > > -- > Rob Sanderson > Director for Cultural Heritage Metadata > Yale University >
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