Here is fun example of linguistic object which I guess challenges p72 but is still actually diaskedastic and perithoric to our enterprise, brought to you by the great zolotas
https://youtu.be/2XAcuxFqk9k In what language is it? In what language is this email? And is it in our capacity as ontologists that we would decide? On Sat, 12 Nov 2022, 2:43 pm Francesco Beretta via Crm-sig, < crm-sig@ics.forth.gr> wrote: > Dear Martin, all > > Sorry to intervene so late in this interesting exchange, I was away for > some days and I'm going through my emails now. > > I encountered the same questions while working a few years ago in a > history project interested in the evolution of the use of names and > surnames. > > The approach of the project was similar to the one presented by Martin > below and amounted to saying that it is difficult to state to which > language a first name, or surname, belongs in itself, except for some cases > or if we consider the region of origin, but what is relevant is that this > specific string of characters is used at a given time (and attested in the > sources) in a language or in another (i.e. in a society speaking this > language) to identify a person or an object. > > To capture the information envisaged in the project in the sense of this > approach I decided to stick to the substance of crm:E41 Appellation class: > > "This class comprises signs, either meaningful or not, or arrangements of > signs following a specific syntax, that are used or can be used to refer to > and identify a specific instance of some class or category within a certain > context. Instances of E41 Appellation do not identify things by their > meaning, even if they happen to have one, but *instead by convention, > tradition, or agreement*." (CRM 6.2). > > and to add in what has become the SDHSS CRM unofficial extension the sdh:C11 > Appellation in a Language <https://ontome.net/class/365/namespace/3> > class. > > This class has as you'll see a clear social, i.e. intentional flavor, and > captures the information that some appellation is considered as a valid > appellation of a thing in a language (i.e. society speaking his language) > during an attested time-span. > > This was also an attempt to cope with the frbroo:F52 Name Use Activity > issue: > > 413 Pursuit and Name Use Activity to CRMsoc > <https://cidoc-crm.org/Issue/ID-413-pursuit-and-name-use-activity-to-crmsoc> > 573 CRMsoc & F51 Pursuit & F52 Name Use Activity > <https://cidoc-crm.org/Issue/ID-573-crmsoc-f51-pursuit-f52-name-use-activity> > > which is somewhat slowed down by the ongoing exchanges around the nature > and substance of the social world as foundation of the CRMsoc extension. > > But one could easily provide another substance to an *Appellation in a > Language* class making it a Name Use Activity (in a Language) class (and > subclass of crm:E13 Attribute Assignment > <https://ontome.net/class/13/namespace/1> or crm:E7 Activity). > > This would be in my opinion a good way of coping with the wish expressed > by George at the beginning of this exchange to "make [this kind of classes] > full classes in the standard so that they are fully vetted and controlled. > It is a fundamental class. It should be in the standard in the first > place", wish that I definitely share. And also to stick, as far as I can > understand, to the modelling principles reminded by Martin. > > And it would also finally solve the issues still open, to my knowledge, > concerning the original FRBR-oo class. > > Best > > Francesco > > > > > > > > > Le 09.11.22 à 20:13, Martin Doerr via Crm-sig a écrit : > > Dear both, > > The question was not if names can belong to language, or if langauges > create names. It was how this is unambiguously defined. > > > The example below is what I feared. The fact that the arabic script is > mainly used for Arabic, does itr make a *transcript *of an English name > "Arabic?" why not Farsi? I ask here for the Librarians to express their > opinion. > > Why is Douglas Adams not "German"? I would use it in German exactly in > this form. > > But "Adams" I think is a last name exclusive to English, as Dörr to > German. > > What is the language of "Martin", "Martino", of > > Martin: Identical in English, Spanish, French, Dutch, German, Norwegian, > Danish, Swedish? Martino in Italian, Rumanian? > > From Wikipedia: "Joshua". > > *Josua* or *Jozua* is a male given name and a variation of the Hebrew > name Yeshua <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yeshua>.[1] > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josua#cite_note-1>[2] > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josua#cite_note-2> Notable people with > this name include: > > - Josua Bühler <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josua_B%C3%BChler> > (1895–1983), Swiss philatelist > - Josua de Grave <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josua_de_Grave> > (1643–1712), Dutch draughtsman and painter > - Josua Harrsch <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josua_Harrsch> > (1669–1719), German missionary > - Josua Hoffalt <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josua_Hoffalt> (born > 1984), French ballet dancer > - Josua Järvinen <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josua_J%C3%A4rvinen> > (1871–1948), Finnish politician > - Josua Koroibulu <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josua_Koroibulu> > (born 1982), Fijian rugby league footballer > - Josua Heschel Kuttner > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josua_Heschel_Kuttner> (c. 1803–1878), > Jewish Orthodox scholar and rabbi > - Josua Lindahl <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josua_Lindahl> > (1844–1912), Swedish-American geologist and paleontologist > - Josua Maaler <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josua_Maaler> > (1529–1599), Swiss pastor and lexicographer > - Josua Mateinaniu <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josua_Mateinaniu> ( > fl. 1835), Fijian missionary > - Josua Mejías <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josua_Mej%C3%ADas> (born > 1997), Venezuelan footballer > - Johann Josua Mosengel > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_Josua_Mosengel> (1663–1731), > German pipe organ builder > - Jozua Naudé (disambiguation) > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jozua_Naud%C3%A9_(disambiguation)>, > several people > - Josua Swanepoel <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josua_Swanepoel> > (born 1983), South African cricketer > - Josua Tuisova <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josua_Tuisova> (born > 1994), Fijian rugby union player > - Josua Vakurunabili <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josua_Vakurunabili> > (born 1992), Fijian rugby union player > - Josua Vici <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josua_Vici> (born 1994), > Fijian rugby union player > > Following scripts, only *יְהוֹשֻׁעַ > <https://www.behindthename.com/support/transcribe?type=HB&target=Y%3Ahwos%5Eu%5E%22a%5E>* > would be Hebrew, but Yeshua <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yeshua> > English? > > For example, >>> >>> The language of the name of Douglas Adams (the Person) that has the >>> symbolic content of "Douglas Adams" is English. >>> The language of the name of Douglas Adams (the Person) that has the >>> symbolic content of "دوغلاس آدمز" is Arabic. >>> >>> These are clearly expressed in a language, and appellations, and >>> symbolic. >>> >>> Or: >>> >>> eg:Q42 a crm:E21_Person ; >>> crm:P1_is_identified_by [ >>> a crm:E33_E41_Linguistic_Appellation ; >>> P190_has_symbolic_content "Douglas Adams" ; >>> P72_has_language <uri-for-English> ] >>> crm:P1_is_identified_by [ >>> a crm:E33_E41_Linguistic_Appellation ; >>> P190_has_symbolic_content "دوغلاس آدمز" ; >>> P72_has_language <uri-for-Arabic> ] >>> >>> E33_E41 is a super-class of E35, which is semantically narrower through >>> its scope note as applying only to "works", and "can be clearly identified >>> as titles due to their form". I don't think anyone would say that "Douglas >>> Adams" is the "title" of the person. >>> >>> Rob >>> >>> > -- > ------------------------------------ > Dr. Martin Doerr > > Honorary Head of the > Center for Cultural Informatics > > Information Systems Laboratory > Institute of Computer Science > Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) > > N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, > GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece > > Vox:+30(2810)391625 > Email: mar...@ics.forth.gr > Web-site: http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl > > > _______________________________________________ > Crm-sig mailing > listCrm-sig@ics.forth.grhttp://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig > > > _______________________________________________ > Crm-sig mailing list > Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr > http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig >
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