Dear Francesco, dear Gordon,
Thank you very much!
It also appears to me that a large part of the semantics we are
discussing is property of the relation between a particular and a name
and not the name. The LRM Nomen has consequently modelled LRMoo,
as
"F12 Nomen
Subclass of: E89 Propositional Object
Scope note: This class comprises associations between an instance of any
class, and signs or arrangements of
signs that are used to refer to and identify that instance."
You both confirm this in different ways. I had been talking about a
property of P1 is identified by, Francesco about the Name use, all
variants of the same pattern. I think we should floow this thought.
By the way, I am working in methodology ontology engineering 30 years,
and obviously would never propose to decide instances. Don't know, how I
could be interpreted that way.
The ontologist must provide a definition of the "intension" of a class
or property. This definition, be it appealing to common sense or in
terms of logical rules or anything in between, must enable domain
experts with a *reasonable precision* to decide on a justifiable base,
if an instance belongs to the concept yes or no. This should approximate
at least some professional practice. A "fuzzy zone" or area of
undecidable instances *always* exists. In CRM-SIG, we always explore
this by examples. If, e.g. for *an arbitrary name* there are no limits
to any expert to which language it may belong, it demonstrates a
weakness of the concept. In this case, we seek to understand all
possible similar senses, to find out if the intuitive concept actually
hides a quite substantial concept of different logic.
So, of course, as ontologists we must understand examples, or find a
large enough group of experts that are able to understand them, but we
define intensions. Should have been obvious😁
And yes, why shouldn't Zolotas speak a Greek-English mix? Obviously, it
is neither German nor Chinese nor Arabic...that would not challege P72,
since Quantification is not unique, and many European languages are not
so alien to each other.
All the best,
Martin
On 11/13/2022 11:11 AM, George Bruseker via Crm-sig wrote:
Here is fun example of linguistic object which I guess challenges p72
but is still actually diaskedastic and perithoric to our enterprise,
brought to you by the great zolotas
https://youtu.be/2XAcuxFqk9k
In what language is it? In what language is this email?
And is it in our capacity as ontologists that we would decide?
On Sat, 12 Nov 2022, 2:43 pm Francesco Beretta via Crm-sig,
<crm-sig@ics.forth.gr> wrote:
Dear Martin, all
Sorry to intervene so late in this interesting exchange, I was
away for some days and I'm going through my emails now.
I encountered the same questions while working a few years ago in
a history project interested in the evolution of the use of names
and surnames.
The approach of the project was similar to the one presented by
Martin below and amounted to saying that it is difficult to state
to which language a first name, or surname, belongs in itself,
except for some cases or if we consider the region of origin, but
what is relevant is that this specific string of characters is
used at a given time (and attested in the sources) in a language
or in another (i.e. in a society speaking this language) to
identify a person or an object.
To capture the information envisaged in the project in the sense
of this approach I decided to stick to the substance of crm:E41
Appellation class:
"This class comprises signs, either meaningful or not, or
arrangements of signs following a specific syntax, that are used
or can be used to refer to and identify a specific instance of
some class or category within a certain context. Instances of E41
Appellation do not identify things by their meaning, even if they
happen to have one, but _instead by convention, tradition, or
agreement_." (CRM 6.2).
and to add in what has become the SDHSS CRM unofficial extension
the sdh:C11 Appellation in a Language
<https://ontome.net/class/365/namespace/3> class.
This class has as you'll see a clear social, i.e. intentional
flavor, and captures the information that some appellation is
considered as a valid appellation of a thing in a language (i.e.
society speaking his language) during an attested time-span.
This was also an attempt to cope with the frbroo:F52 Name Use
Activity issue:
413 Pursuit and Name Use Activity to CRMsoc
<https://cidoc-crm.org/Issue/ID-413-pursuit-and-name-use-activity-to-crmsoc>
573 CRMsoc & F51 Pursuit & F52 Name Use Activity
<https://cidoc-crm.org/Issue/ID-573-crmsoc-f51-pursuit-f52-name-use-activity>
which is somewhat slowed down by the ongoing exchanges around the
nature and substance of the social world as foundation of the
CRMsoc extension.
But one could easily provide another substance to an /Appellation
in a Language/ class making it a Name Use Activity (in a Language)
class (and subclass of crm:E13 Attribute Assignment
<https://ontome.net/class/13/namespace/1> or crm:E7 Activity).
This would be in my opinion a good way of coping with the wish
expressed by George at the beginning of this exchange to "make
[this kind of classes] full classes in the standard so that they
are fully vetted and controlled. It is a fundamental class. It
should be in the standard in the first place", wish that I
definitely share. And also to stick, as far as I can understand,
to the modelling principles reminded by Martin.
And it would also finally solve the issues still open, to my
knowledge, concerning the original FRBR-oo class.
Best
Francesco
Le 09.11.22 à 20:13, Martin Doerr via Crm-sig a écrit :
Dear both,
The question was not if names can belong to language, or if
langauges create names. It was how this is unambiguously defined.
The example below is what I feared. The fact that the arabic
script is mainly used for Arabic, does itr make a *transcript *of
an English name "Arabic?" why not Farsi? I ask here for the
Librarians to express their opinion.
Why is Douglas Adams not "German"? I would use it in German
exactly in this form.
But "Adams" I think is a last name exclusive to English, as Dörr
to German.
What is the language of "Martin", "Martino", of
Martin: Identical in English, Spanish, French, Dutch, German,
Norwegian, Danish, Swedish? Martino in Italian, Rumanian?
From Wikipedia: "Joshua".
*Josua* or *Jozua* is a male given name and a variation of the
Hebrew name Yeshua <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yeshua>.^[1]
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josua#cite_note-1> ^[2]
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josua#cite_note-2> Notable people
with this name include:
* Josua Bühler
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josua_B%C3%BChler>
(1895–1983), Swiss philatelist
* Josua de Grave <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josua_de_Grave>
(1643–1712), Dutch draughtsman and painter
* Josua Harrsch <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josua_Harrsch>
(1669–1719), German missionary
* Josua Hoffalt <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josua_Hoffalt>
(born 1984), French ballet dancer
* Josua Järvinen
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josua_J%C3%A4rvinen>
(1871–1948), Finnish politician
* Josua Koroibulu
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josua_Koroibulu> (born 1982),
Fijian rugby league footballer
* Josua Heschel Kuttner
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josua_Heschel_Kuttner>
(c. 1803–1878), Jewish Orthodox scholar and rabbi
* Josua Lindahl <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josua_Lindahl>
(1844–1912), Swedish-American geologist and paleontologist
* Josua Maaler <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josua_Maaler>
(1529–1599), Swiss pastor and lexicographer
* Josua Mateinaniu
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josua_Mateinaniu> (fl. 1835),
Fijian missionary
* Josua Mejías
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josua_Mej%C3%ADas> (born
1997), Venezuelan footballer
* Johann Josua Mosengel
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_Josua_Mosengel>
(1663–1731), German pipe organ builder
* Jozua Naudé (disambiguation)
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jozua_Naud%C3%A9_(disambiguation)>,
several people
* Josua Swanepoel
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josua_Swanepoel> (born 1983),
South African cricketer
* Josua Tuisova <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josua_Tuisova>
(born 1994), Fijian rugby union player
* Josua Vakurunabili
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josua_Vakurunabili> (born
1992), Fijian rugby union player
* Josua Vici <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josua_Vici> (born
1994), Fijian rugby union player
Following scripts, only /יְהוֹשֻׁעַ
<https://www.behindthename.com/support/transcribe?type=HB&target=Y%3Ahwos%5Eu%5E%22a%5E>/
would be Hebrew, but Yeshua
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yeshua> English?
For example,
The language of the name of Douglas Adams (the Person)
that has the symbolic content of "Douglas Adams" is English.
The language of the name of Douglas Adams (the Person)
that has the symbolic content of "دوغلاس آدمز" is Arabic.
These are clearly expressed in a language, and
appellations, and symbolic.
Or:
eg:Q42 a crm:E21_Person ;
crm:P1_is_identified_by [
a crm:E33_E41_Linguistic_Appellation ;
P190_has_symbolic_content "Douglas Adams" ;
P72_has_language <uri-for-English> ]
crm:P1_is_identified_by [
a crm:E33_E41_Linguistic_Appellation ;
P190_has_symbolic_content "دوغلاس آدمز" ;
P72_has_language <uri-for-Arabic> ]
E33_E41 is a super-class of E35, which is semantically
narrower through its scope note as applying only to
"works", and "can be clearly identified as titles due to
their form". I don't think anyone would say that
"Douglas Adams" is the "title" of the person.
Rob
--
------------------------------------
Dr. Martin Doerr
Honorary Head of the
Center for Cultural Informatics
Information Systems Laboratory
Institute of Computer Science
Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH)
N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton,
GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece
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Web-site:http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl
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------------------------------------
Dr. Martin Doerr
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Center for Cultural Informatics
Information Systems Laboratory
Institute of Computer Science
Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH)
N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton,
GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece
Vox:+30(2810)391625
Email:mar...@ics.forth.gr
Web-site:http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl
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