[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> The problem is the herd mentality. When I get Joe Average alone, sit down
> and reason with him I find that most times we share a good deal of
> insights and we both go away from the discussion better off .. its when
> you get people in a group that things go astray.
That just proves that Joe Average is entertaining you, but believes otherwise.
Or is entertaining the mob.
> Pulling one over on an individual can be tricky sometimes .. pulling one
> over on a mass of people seems easier in certain cases. Thats the problem,
> in a nutshell as I see it.
Not a problem. You get them an emergency, you feed them FUD and scare them,
and they'll bend over in every direction you ask. Hell, just scream terrorist
and they'll happily put up with all sorts of nonsense to take a plane ride.
> > Uncle Sam, or any other regime, steals money because it can. Even if
> > the reasons were honest, (they are not), you accurately define what is
> > going on. It's theft. Some of us are unwilling to exploit the
> > unfortunate to justify thievery.
>
> Come now. It is not theft if you agree to give the money away, which you
> implicitly do by living in America and being an American citizen. If
> you really feel that strongly about it, you are free to find a country
> that better suits you. Or, like me, accept your fringe status, bow to
> the majority rule of democracy, accept your burden, and in your spare
> time work to try and change some of the laws.
Yeah, whatever, but it's still theft. Just becase I tolerate it doesn't make
me like it.
> Or, of course, you could get a shit load of anthrax and march on capitol
> hill.
No thanks, when you do that, you just allow a fresh batch of scum to rise to
the top pointing to you as the reason why they must declare a state of
emergency and put armed troops on every corner. Not effective.
> I've read Smith and Friedman.. and, since you are familar with Marx, you
> realize that his dream degraded in practice .. just like the dream of
> pure capitalism has.
Yep, but even so, capitalism under a fascist tending government is far better
off than communism under a fascist tending government.
> The ideal of self determination gave way to the '80 "greed is good" as
> easily as the "worker's paradise" gave way to a bullshit puppet show with
> the privledged party members pulling the strings.
>
> I'm critical of communism because it failed, and I'm critical of the men
> who put it into practice for allowing it to fail. Same holds true for
> American democracy and capitalism.
I'm not a believer of two wolves and a sheep voting for dinner.
> > The vast bulk of your beloved social programs
>
> I'll just cut you off there .. I never said I loved any of our social
> programs, I was just giving the reasoning behind it all.
>
> As I said in another message, I'd LOVE to cut taxes (give people more of
> their money to make them less dependant on social programs), and take just
> a bit to run the government (preferrably with voluntary taxes, like we
> SHOULD have), and put into social programs for honest, working folks who
> simply just hit bad times.
But unlike you, I'm in favor of doing away with ALL social programs. If
they're honest, working folk, they're also going to be honest about saving for
a rainy day. I'm not responsible for anyone's downfall except my own. As
such, you can bet I'd do everything in my power to prevent it.
> Hell, it could even be in the form of a zero-interest loan. Give the
> family some money until the hard times pass, and let them pay it off
> little-by-little, the money goes back into the system to help more people.
> That small percentage of our taxes picks up the slack for inflation.
That would be appropriate. But what happens when they can't pay off the loan?
> Yes, our social programs are messed up .. and yes, they do more harm
> than good, but that is because the machinery of our government is
> inefficient, not because giving money to the unfortunate is
> less-than-desirable.
> > If every sanctimonious asshole who would steal my money for the sake of
> > the "less fortunate" would simply find one person, just one, and do
> > something to improve that persons life, the so called problem of
> > poverty would be eliminated. But that's too hard. Better to hire a
> > group of mercenary terrorists to steal other peoples money and then
> > dole it out...
>
> On behalf of everyone how has done volunteer work: go fuck yourself.
No, I agree with that the above paragraph. If you do volunteer work, it's
because you chose to. Because you get some value out of it. But put a gun to
my head and demand I hand over 50% of my money so that some insignifican amount
of that (or even if it were a significant portion) can go to feed the hungry,
and it becomes theft.
> I've tutored kids in math and computer programming. I've helped build
> machines for those kids.
Me too. I've taught them how to sysadmin and build boxes. But, I never did it
for free, and never will. The teacher also has to eat.
> I've worked in homeless shelters and soup
> kitchens. I know all about how messed up our social programs are, and
> I know how many times they fail .. but I also know how many times they
> succeed. And yes, I'd like to make those programs more efficient so
> that they are more successful, most of the time. But while I'm working
> to do that, I'm sure as hell not going to shut down those centers.
Then start by creating a charity system, not one based on stealing from those
who work to give to those who won't or can't.
> > Therefore Capitalism sucks and Americans are ignorant?
>
> Capitalism does suck, and yes .. the average American is ignorant about
> what the hell is going on around the world.. but it is precisely because
> I love:
In what way does Capitalism suck again?
> a) the idea of making a little coin and pursuing life, liberty
> and happiness
>
> b) American people and culture
>
> that I'm trying to plug the leaks in this boat before we all
> drown.
The only reason we'd drown is because Uncle Sam is taking a slice of our pie at
every transaction.
> > Here is a truth that you have failed to consider: Money is the measure
> > of a persons worth to society. It always has been.
>
> I disagree. Gandhi. Beloved by people around the world, and I doubt it is
> because a handful of books about him were sold.
A martyr is a martyr. I won't deny that. And it's precisely because he fought
off British oppression that made him as such. But did he wish everyone in
India to be poor? Or did he wish them to be able to be free to prosper?
> Einstein. Respected by people who don't know the importance of his work.
> Considered the quintescential physicist.. and I doubt relativity has
> done much for our economy. We we hit hard-core deep space travel or
> some other weird shit and his discoveries start having practical import
> in the economic life of Joe Sixpack, I doubt he his popularity is going
> to suddenly jump.
Popularity isn't necessarily measured by money. See Amadou Diallo for
instance. His claim to fame was swallowing 41 pieces of lead. But the truth
is econnomic - the pigs that slaughtered him in a way took away his capacity to
earn money - a living, and therefore live. By the outright termination of his
life.
> Hopefully people DO get what they deserve.
Hopefully.
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