On 19 October 2015 at 17:37, sebb <seb...@gmail.com> wrote: > On 19 October 2015 at 16:19, Sam Ruby <ru...@intertwingly.net> wrote: >> On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 11:12 AM, sebb <seb...@gmail.com> wrote: >>> On 19 October 2015 at 12:55, Sam Ruby <ru...@intertwingly.net> wrote: >>>> On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 5:42 AM, sebb <seb...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> On 19 October 2015 at 06:58, Hervé BOUTEMY <herve.bout...@free.fr> wrote: >>>>>> ok, if you stay only on PMC composition information, please just remove >>>>>> the >>>>>> LDAP part: this only adds confusion >>>>> >>>>> That's not what I am suggesting. >>>>> >>>>>> adding another section is useful if it's about another information: I >>>>>> thought >>>>>> information about count of committers was useful (even if not always >>>>>> easy to >>>>>> know which are the few TLPs who let every ASF committer commit) >>>>> >>>>> The LDAP unix group section is potentially useful for the board, as it >>>>> may relate to changes in the committer roster. >>>>> However, as you say, it does not apply to all TLPs. >>>>> Also rarely are inactive committers removed. >>>>> Maybe the best would be to include a note to this effect. >>>> >>>> I see it as adding more confusion than insight. And in any case, the >>>> whimsy board agenda tool provides a direct link to the roster tool's >>>> page for the PMC associated with the report which provides more than >>>> raw numbers, as it will actually indicate what the differences are. >>>> Here's an index of such pages: >>> >>> Huh? >>> >>> I think we are talking about two different things here. >> >> That's indeed possible. >> >>> 1) The first is the number of people added to the LDAP unix group in >>> the past quarter >>> IMO this is useful for the board, as it shows activity in recruiting >>> committers (though there are of course caveats). >>> This info is not provided by Whimsy but it is provided by the reporter >>> tool (and has been in the template for some while). >> >> Changes in committers is indeed useful. I think highlighting the >> source of that information in each and every report is at best an >> implementation detail and at worst confusing. I would actually go so >> far as to say that the word LDAP should not be in the report unless >> there is a reason to draw this to the attention of the board. >> >>> 2) Discrepancies between the PMC roster defined in committee-info.txt >>> and the LDAP committee and unix groups. >>> These are already clearly laid out in the Whimsy page. >>> It is not my intention to repeat that info in Reporter, merely to link >>> to the page if the numbers don't agree. >>> >>> This would be done from the section currently called: >>> >>> "PMC changes (From LDAP) " >>> (previously "LDAP changes") >> >> I think the (From LDAP) should be omitted, but this is still a big >> improvement. Thanks! > > Again, I think we are talking about different sections of the report. > > There are 3 sections currently under discussion: > > 1) PMC changes (From committee-info) > > This is a relatively new section (originally headed "PMC Changes") > which only reports changes from committee-info.txt. > > I think this section is OK as it is. > > 2) PMC changes (From LDAP) > > This was previously called "LDAP Changes" (because that's what it contains). > > It only deals with changes to the LDAP committee group and the LDAP unix > group. > Dropping the "(From LDAP)" will make things worse; the section should > revert to its original title. > > The above 2 sections are not part of the report template, and are > intended as information for the PMC. > > As such, it seems to me that it needs to be clear that the info in > section 2 is derived from LDAP because that is where it is maintained. > > 3) Report template > > This section is intended as a basis for the board report, and AIUI was > the original cause of this thread. > > This section was - and still is - confusing. > > It contains details of PMC (committee-info) changes - these are > relevant to the board. > > It also contains details of changes to the LDAP committee group - not > useful to the board; should be removed. > > And it contains details of changes to the LDAP committer (unix) group > - this relates to the committer base, so is potentially of interest to > the board. > However the description could be clearer as to what the numbers relate to. > > To try and make this clearer, I have created two additional versions > of the reporter page: > > https://reporter.apache.org/index_previous.html - before the recent > change by Rich > https://reporter.apache.org/index_proposed.html - what I think it > should look like > > There is also: > https://reporter.apache.org - current implementation > > Please compare the "Report template" section to see the main changes. > > Note that I have not implemented all the necessary changes to the > report template.
This has now been implemented. > The intention is to show what it could look like so readers can > comment on whether it is clear or not. > I have not yet allowed for the fact that this section is only > interested in committer changes. > Where there are only changes to the committee (and no committer > changes) in the last quarter the display is likely to be wrong. This should now display OK. >>> The discrepancy information is not really relevant to the board so it >>> would not be added to the report template section. >>> >>> However it does seem useful to flag up to the PMC if there are any >>> discrepancies in the numbers. >>> >>>> https://whimsy.apache.org/roster/committee/ >>>> >>>>>> Regards, >>>>>> >>>>>> Hervé >>>> >>>> - Sam Ruby >> >> - Sam Ruby >> >>>>>> Le lundi 19 octobre 2015 01:22:37 sebb a écrit : >>>>>>> On 19 October 2015 at 00:44, Hervé BOUTEMY <herve.bout...@free.fr> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >> ---------- cut here ---------- >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> ## PMC changes: >>>>>>> >> - Currently 42 PMC members listed in committee-info.txt. >>>>>>> >> - No new PMC members added in the last 3 months >>>>>>> >> - Last PMC addition was Dana Freeborn at Fri Mar 27 2015 >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> ## LDAP unix group changes: >>>>>>> >> - Currently 44 members >>>>>>> >> - Radu Manole was added on Tue Oct 06 2015 >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> ---------- cut here ---------- >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> Would that satisfy everyone? >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > IMHO, making explicit which "LDAP unix group" is looked at would be >>>>>>> > useful >>>>>>> >>>>>>> There is only one LDAP unix group for each PMC. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> > Since I still don't understand if it's the committers group or PMC >>>>>>> > group >>>>>>> > (I expect it to be the committers group) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The committers group maintained using modify_unix_group.pl >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The committee group is maintained using modify_committee.pl >>>>>>> >>>>>>> > and if oodt-pmc LDAP does not have the same count as PMC members >>>>>>> > listed in >>>>>>> > committee-info.txt, a warning should be added in the first section >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Such a warning does not belong in the report to the board, so does not >>>>>>> belong in the report template. >>>>>>> It might be worth adding a warning to the previous LDAP section. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> > Regards, >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > Hervé >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > Le dimanche 18 octobre 2015 14:19:00 sebb a écrit : >>>>>>> >> The app currently says for OODT: >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> ---------- cut here ---------- >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> ## PMC changes: >>>>>>> >> - Currently 42 PMC members. >>>>>>> >> - No new PMC members added in the last 3 months >>>>>>> >> - Last PMC addition was Dana Freeborn at Fri Mar 27 2015 >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> - Currently 44 committers and 43 PMC members. >>>>>>> >> - Radu Manole was added to the PMC on Sun Oct 11 2015 >>>>>>> >> - Radu Manole was added as a committer on Tue Oct 06 2015 >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> ---------- cut here ---------- >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> Note that there are either 42 or 43 PMC members. (*) >>>>>>> >> I think the above is a lot more confusing than the previous version >>>>>>> >> which >>>>>>> >> was: >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> ---------- cut here ---------- >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> ## PMC changes: >>>>>>> >> - Currently 42 PMC members. >>>>>>> >> - No new PMC members added in the last 3 months >>>>>>> >> - Last PMC addition was Dana Freeborn at Fri Mar 27 2015 >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> ## LDAP changes: >>>>>>> >> - Currently 44 committers and 43 committee group members. >>>>>>> >> - Radu Manole was added to the committee group on Sun Oct 11 2015 >>>>>>> >> - Radu Manole was added as a committer on Tue Oct 06 2015 >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> ---------- cut here ---------- >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> As I already wrote, there is now no reason for the LDAP committee >>>>>>> >> changes to be listed in the board report. >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> So what I propose is: >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> ---------- cut here ---------- >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> ## PMC changes: >>>>>>> >> - Currently 42 PMC members listed in committee-info.txt. >>>>>>> >> - No new PMC members added in the last 3 months >>>>>>> >> - Last PMC addition was Dana Freeborn at Fri Mar 27 2015 >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> ## LDAP unix group changes: >>>>>>> >> - Currently 44 members >>>>>>> >> - Radu Manole was added on Tue Oct 06 2015 >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> ---------- cut here ---------- >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> Would that satisfy everyone? >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> (*) that is because Radu has not yet been added to committee-info.txt >>>>>>> >> so is not yet officially a member of the PMC >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> On 18 October 2015 at 10:12, sebb <seb...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>> >> > On 18 October 2015 at 09:31, Hervé BOUTEMY <herve.bout...@free.fr> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >> >> from my understanding: >>>>>>> >> >> - PMC composition is available in 2 forms: committee-info.txt (= >>>>>>> >> >> golden >>>>>>> >> >> source) and LDAP xxx-pmc group >>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>> >> > The *only* record of current PMC membership is committee-info.txt. >>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>> >> > The LDAP committee group (modify_committee.pl) is only used for >>>>>>> >> > granting karma, e.g. to PMC-private SVN and dist/release. >>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>> >> > They should generally have the same members, since all (and perhaps >>>>>>> >> > only) PMC members should have the karma. >>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>> >> > However this is not always the case, and it's important not to >>>>>>> >> > confuse >>>>>>> >> > the >>>>>>> >> > two.> >>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>> >> >> - committers list is available only in LDAP as xxx group >>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>> >> > The LDAP unix group (modify_unix_group.pl) generally grants karma >>>>>>> >> > to >>>>>>> >> > SVN. >>>>>>> >> > However not every PMC uses it - e.g. Commons and Subversion allow >>>>>>> >> > any >>>>>>> >> > ASF committer to commit. >>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>> >> >> then instead of displaying: >>>>>>> >> >> * PMC from committee-info >>>>>>> >> >> * LDAP info: PMC + committers >>>>>>> >> >> >>>>>>> >> >> it would be easier to understand if the structure was more: >>>>>>> >> >> * PMC info from committee-info (and warning if LDAP PMC info is >>>>>>> >> >> not >>>>>>> >> >> consistent) >>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>> >> > The consistency check is already done by Whimsy, but I suppose it >>>>>>> >> > could be repeated here. >>>>>>> >> > Or the Whimsy page could be linked if there was a discrepancy. >>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>> >> >> * committers info (no need to explain that it comes from LDAP) >>>>>>> >> >> >>>>>>> >> >> WDYT? >>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>> >> > That is basically what it did say before the recent change. >>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>> >> > Except that I do think it's necessary to explain that the committer >>>>>>> >> > (modify_unix_group.pl) info is just an LDAP group. >>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>> >> > There is no direct relationship with committers on a project in >>>>>>> >> > general. >>>>>>> >> > Commons and Subversion don't use the group for commit karma. >>>>>>> >> > Also it's relatively rare that people are dropped from the unix >>>>>>> >> > group, >>>>>>> >> > even if they have stopped contributing. >>>>>>> >> > So the group does not have any bearing on the current committer >>>>>>> >> > base. >>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>> >> > Additions to the unix group generally are associated with new >>>>>>> >> > committers, so that is probably worth reporting. >>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>> >> >> Hervé >>>>>>> >> >> >>>>>>> >> >> Le vendredi 16 octobre 2015 23:24:16 sebb a écrit : >>>>>>> >> >>> On 16 October 2015 at 21:08, Pierre Smits >>>>>>> >> >>> <pierre.sm...@gmail.com> >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > wrote: >>>>>>> >> >>> > I feel confident that anybody objects to ambiguous >>>>>>> >> >>> > information, and >>>>>>> >> >>> > that >>>>>>> >> >>> > no >>>>>>> >> >>> > one will object to improvement. >>>>>>> >> >>> >>>>>>> >> >>> I do object to conflating LDAP committee and PMC membership. >>>>>>> >> >>> The two are completely distinct (although related). >>>>>>> >> >>> >>>>>>> >> >>> This is why I changed the text to show LDAP committee rather >>>>>>> >> >>> than PMC >>>>>>> >> >>> a while back. >>>>>>> >> >>> At the time, the tool did not analyse the actual PMC membership, >>>>>>> >> >>> only >>>>>>> >> >>> LDAP. >>>>>>> >> >>> >>>>>>> >> >>> However it does now, so the output shows them as distinct items. >>>>>>> >> >>> >>>>>>> >> >>> The LDAP committee information is not really relevant to the >>>>>>> >> >>> board, >>>>>>> >> >>> so >>>>>>> >> >>> could now be dropped from the report skeleton. >>>>>>> >> >>> >>>>>>> >> >>> But I think it is completely wrong to imply that changes to the >>>>>>> >> >>> LDAP >>>>>>> >> >>> committee group have any bearing on PMC membership. >>>>>>> >> >>> >>>>>>> >> >>> > Best regards, >>>>>>> >> >>> > >>>>>>> >> >>> > Pierre Smits >>>>>>> >> >>> > >>>>>>> >> >>> > *OFBiz Extensions Marketplace* >>>>>>> >> >>> > http://oem.ofbizci.net/oci-2/ >>>>>>> >> >>> > >>>>>>> >> >>> > On Fri, Oct 16, 2015 at 8:20 PM, Rich Bowen >>>>>>> >> >>> > <rbo...@rcbowen.com> >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > wrote: >>>>>>> >> >>> >> Although I acknowledge that the LDAP membership and the >>>>>>> >> >>> >> project >>>>>>> >> >>> >> membership >>>>>>> >> >>> >> might be different in certain weird edge cases, for the >>>>>>> >> >>> >> purpose of >>>>>>> >> >>> >> actually >>>>>>> >> >>> >> generating a board report, I find the current formatting >>>>>>> >> >>> >> confuses >>>>>>> >> >>> >> me >>>>>>> >> >>> >> Every >>>>>>> >> >>> >> Single Time. >>>>>>> >> >>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>> >> Viz: >>>>>>> >> >>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>> >> ## PMC changes: >>>>>>> >> >>> >> - Currently 10 PMC members. >>>>>>> >> >>> >> - No new PMC members added in the last 3 months >>>>>>> >> >>> >> - Last PMC addition was Jean-Fran=C3=A7ois Maury at Mon Apr >>>>>>> >> >>> >> 07 >>>>>>> >> >>> >> 2014 >>>>>>> >> >>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>> >> ## LDAP changes: >>>>>>> >> >>> >> - Currently 26 committers and 10 committee group members. >>>>>>> >> >>> >> - No new committee group members added in the last 3 months >>>>>>> >> >>> >> - No new committers added in the last 3 months >>>>>>> >> >>> >> - Last committer addition was Lyor Goldstein at Thu Apr 30 >>>>>>> >> >>> >> 2015 >>>>>>> >> >>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>> >> So, I can tease out of that there's 26 committers, and 10 PMC >>>>>>> >> >>> >> members, >>>>>>> >> >>> >> and >>>>>>> >> >>> >> the latest additions were Jean Francois on April 7, and Lyor >>>>>>> >> >>> >> on >>>>>>> >> >>> >> April >>>>>>> >> >>> >> 30. >>>>>>> >> >>> >> The rest of that phrasing is confusing to me. committee vs >>>>>>> >> >>> >> committer >>>>>>> >> >>> >> and >>>>>>> >> >>> >> LDAP vs ... whatever. Not sure. >>>>>>> >> >>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>> >> Does anybody object to me reformatting this a little, so that >>>>>>> >> >>> >> it >>>>>>> >> >>> >> won't >>>>>>> >> >>> >> confuse me next month? >>>>>>> >> >>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>> >> --Rich >>>>>>> >> >>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>> >> -- >>>>>>> >> >>> >> Rich Bowen - rbo...@rcbowen.com - @rbowen >>>>>>> >> >>> >> http://apachecon.com/ - @apachecon >>>>>>
