That was someone’s opinion on a list. That is not official. Sent from my iPhone
> On May 6, 2022, at 12:14 PM, me <m...@emangini.com> wrote: > > Our legal folks have responded (quickly!). > > I’m quoting the recommendation here: > > If someone wants to take ASF to court over this, we can > worry about it, then. Until then, there isn't really anything we can do > about it other than try to be as benign as possible toward those people > who might consider such litigation. > > > Benign as possible can be read in a number of different ways, depending on > how we are defining the scope (federally recognized Apache nations, all > Apache nations, all indigenous tribes, etc.) > > > > 1.) (Extreme 1) Do nothing. Without a registered complaint from the tribe, > this is analogous to an “If it ain’t broke don’t fix it, approach”. > > PRO: We don’t bring attention to a problem by communicating a scenario > > CON: There has been communicated social impact complaints that aren’t being > addressed. There is a latent risk. > > > > 2.) (Extreme 2) Do everything. Just change the name and the license > proactively. This is a “full speed ahead” proactive effort. > > PRO: This removes any and all risk in perpetuity > > CON: The level of effort is substantial, and it may exceed social > responsibility. > > > > 3.) Middle ground. Not sure what that is. > > > > Cheers! > > Ed > > > > > > > > > > > From: Owen Rubel <oru...@gmail.com> > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <dev@community.apache.org> > Date: May 6, 2022 at 12:24:54 > To: dev@community.apache.org <dev@community.apache.org> > Subject: Re: Naming/Branding: First Steps > > Bravo. Brilliant. > > > Owen Rubel > oru...@gmail.com > > >> On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 7:26 AM me <m...@emangini.com> wrote: >> >> Happy Friday/Saturday esteemed colleagues and collaborators! >> >> I kicked off the first steps by reaching out to the legal team to >> understand the risk/worst case scenario. I’m attempting to gain a better >> understanding to the question: “What if the choice is taken away from us, >> through litigation?” >> >> My thought process is the following: >> >> Irrespective of social climate, level of effort, etc. there is a worst >> case scenario represented by the ever present risk. Before we embark on any >> journeys of epic proportions for the greater good, it’s helpful to define >> the stakes and understand our primary responsibilities: our community. >> >> I think it’s a fair assumption that this will help level set conversations >> going forward, as well as to provide us a next question: “Given the defined >> risk, what is its magnitude?” (i.e. is it a 1 in a billion lightning >> strike, or a 50/50 coin flip). >> >> — >> >> That said, I think there is a derivative of Owen’s statements we have to >> consider. >> >> Asking a question to parties who haven't considered that question >> inevitably runs the risk of changing their perspective. If there is a gun >> to be jumped, this is most likely it. If I can make a request of those >> involved thus far, can you sleep on this and think about it? I think it’s >> something we need to consider internally so that any outreach is approached >> with care. >> >> It might be worth doing some internal research on Apache culture (nothing >> exhaustive, but enough for us to understand tribal values) before >> performing outreach (or in the extreme, from performing it altogether). At >> the very least this can help us navigate away from areas that may induce >> conflict, as well as to consider the wording of our inquiry. >> >> Walter, you seem to have a decent hold on the social impact. Do you have a >> resource you can reach out to? (Or is it something you’re willing to >> research to compile some facts?) >> >> >> >> From: me <m...@emangini.com> >> Reply: me <m...@emangini.com> >> Date: May 5, 2022 at 12:57:25 >> To: dev@community.apache.org <dev@community.apache.org>, Owen Rubel < >> oru...@gmail.com> >> Subject: Re: A way to keep the name >> >> Owen, >> >> You’re conflating different aspects of the circumstances. >> (Are you not from the US? Sorry for my ignorance. I’m just trying to >> better understand your position.) >> >> 1.) Business Risk. >> >> Our brand name has a causal relationship with an indigenous people. >> Regardless of our reputation or status, that indigenous people has the >> claim to the naming and branding based on existing legal precedent in the >> United States. This presents a business risk to the foundation and license. >> It would be in the best interest of the foundation to evaluate that risk. >> >> This problem exists whether it is dormant or active. I’m going to hand >> wave for brevity, but I’m happy to take this offline to explain it further. >> >> Yes, the ASF is a business. It may be a Non-Profit, Open Source Business, >> but we create products that are consumed. >> >> Profit and intent are irrelevant. There is no barrier (legally, socially >> or in business) that makes these concepts a means for separation or >> dismissal of complaints should they arise. >> >> 2.) Social Impact. >> >> There have been several attempts to try to use the non-profit structure to >> differentiate the ASF from sports teams. The example of sports teams is to >> demonstrate social climate and its impact on businesses. >> (NOTE: Jeep proactively engaged with the Cherokee nation, based on the >> articles previously shared. There was no complaint.) Their effort was >> derived from recognizing current social climate. >> >> Tying this back to business… being proactive is a due diligence factor: >> “What is the risk of continuing to perform action X?” >> >> Again. Profit and intent are irrelevant. There is no barrier (legally, >> socially or in business) that makes these concepts a means for separation >> or dismissal of complaints should they arise. >> >> — >> >> To your point about jumping the gun: >> >> Maybe? This thread started with Walter’s sentiments. Those are derived >> categorically from social impact/climate. Walter suggested that there had >> been inquiries, I believe? For a moment, let’s say that there isn’t. Does >> that matter? >> >> Social Climate is not subject to logic or math. Cherokee could flat out >> endorse Jeep, and Apache could sue us. (Or vice versa). >> >> There is a much larger issue than just a “read the room effort” to >> rebrand. We have a responsibility to the community as a whole to ensure >> that the products are safe to consume going forward in the presence of >> risk. Personally, this is my primary concern (and core to my involvement.) >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> From: Owen Rubel <oru...@gmail.com> >> Reply: dev@community.apache.org <dev@community.apache.org> >> Date: May 5, 2022 at 12:11:21 >> To: dev@community.apache.org <dev@community.apache.org> >> Subject: Re: A way to keep the name >> >> This issue still is that we are jumping the gun. >> >> Has any REPRESENTATIVE from the Apache Nation filed a complaint or >> reached >> out? >> >> You may be creating a problem that does not exist. If we are doing good >> will, it may be noticed and not seen as an issue. >> >> Apache Foundation is a non-profit and not a baseball team that profits >> off >> the Apache Nation creating offensive hand gestures, etc. >> >> This may be a non-issue from the start and you are creating an issue when >> no REPRESENTATIVE has made a statement or complained. >> >> Owen Rubel >> oru...@gmail.com >> >> >> On Wed, May 4, 2022 at 11:05 AM Andrew Wetmore <cottag...@gmail.com> >> wrote: >> >>> Hi, all. >>> >>> We have a very long thread on the possibility of changing the name of >> our >>> foundation, and the complex work involved. I may have missed it in the >>> back-and-forth, but is there not another way forward? >>> >>> What if we established an offering of value to members of the Apache >> Nation >>> (defined by the eight tribes) that attaches a benefit to the existing >>> perceived connection between our use of the word "Apache" and theirs? >> Such >>> a package could start small, but grow toward something that is much >> more >>> useful than the "one peppercorn per annum" which is the legal term in >>> England to describe a nominal rent. >>> >>> The package could begin with elements that we already have in our hands >>> made available to members of the Apache Nation: >>> >>> - travel assistance to attend ApacheCon >>> - advanced access to the Google Summer of Code >>> - assistance within our realms of expertise with technical >> infrastructure >>> or code-development issues the Apache Nation faces >>> >>> On such a basis we could solicit additional "goods" to grow the >> package: >>> >>> - a scholarship fund to enable study in software development >>> - internships with corporations that are ASF sponsors >>> >>> Others among you will have much better ideas than those I have just >> tossed >>> into the ring. Please suggest them. >>> >>> This approach makes a positive out of what some perceive as a negative, >> as >>> we grow a coincidental relationship into one of real value to the people >> of >>> the Apache Nation. >>> >>> a >>> -- >>> Andrew Wetmore >>> >>> Editor, Moose House Publications <https://moosehousepress.com/> >>> Editor-Writer, The Apache Software Foundation <https://apache.org/> >>> >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
