On Fri, Oct 18, 2013 at 2:28 PM, Steven Gill <stevengil...@gmail.com> wrote:
> John: If you decided to take a stab a blogging about it, please think about > blogging on the cordova site! We can all review it before publishing it > too! > > Erik: that video was awesome! Let me know when Gorkem does a release and I > can post it on the cordova twitter feed. > > Michal: Could just be CLI vs Plugman workflow > I'm not necessarily against that naming, but the observation is that both use the command line (aka "a CLI" if not "the CLI"), and CLI also uses new-plugin style, which is documented with plugman, and "Plugman flow" may be used without actually using the plugman tool in theory (just old style manual moving of assets). For someone new to cordova without history of how/why we got to these names, what would very clearly convey the intent? > > On Fri, Oct 18, 2013 at 10:21 AM, Michal Mocny <mmo...@chromium.org> > wrote: > > > I wonder if we should not work out better names for the two workflows. > > Both are kinda command-line-based so saying "CLI" vs "old" is confusing. > > As is saying "the bin/ script flow" confusing. Not sure if "multi" vs > > "single" platform flow is any better, since you can use both flows for > one > > or more platforms. > > > > Anyway, if we have more obvious/catchy names, then we can be more clear > in > > our communications which flow our answers are relevant to. i.e., "use > > plugman to ... (only for ___ flow)". i.e., "Be carefully when editing in > > IDE ... (only for ___ flow)". > > > > -Michal > > > > > > On Fri, Oct 18, 2013 at 1:14 PM, Anis KADRI <anis.ka...@gmail.com> > wrote: > > > > > Erik that's great! Where can we download it? > > > On Oct 18, 2013 8:01 AM, "Andrew Grieve" <agri...@chromium.org> wrote: > > > > > > > Awesome video!! > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Oct 18, 2013 at 3:43 AM, Erik Jan de Wit <ede...@redhat.com> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > On the topic of IDE support my collage Gorkem has made a nice > wizard > > in > > > > > eclipse that mimics the CLI have a look at this video > > > > > > > > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUyUUtmTYok > > > > > > > > > > On 18 Oct,2013, at 4:29 , Maxime LUCE <max...@somatic.fr> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Great Bryan > > > > > > Totally agree !!! > > > > > > > > > > > > Cordialement. > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > > > > Maxime LUCE - Somatic > > > > > > maxime.l...@somatic.fr > > > > > > 06 28 60 72 34 > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > De : Brian LeRoux<mailto:b...@brian.io> > > > > > > Envoyé : 18/10/2013 01:48 > > > > > > À : dev@cordova.apache.org<mailto:dev@cordova.apache.org> > > > > > > Objet : Re: config.xml discussion, we need to talk > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't really appreciate comments that we don't talk to our > users, > > > or > > > > > build apps in anger. Neither of those assertions are true. The > > origins > > > of > > > > > these initiatives are based on both community feedback, and direct > > > > > experience. > > > > > > > > > > > > Keeping your focus on just pure platform side of a project is > fine, > > > of > > > > > course, since the CLI delegates to the platform. This was also a > > > > deliberate > > > > > learning from MANY attempts at an architecture that satisfies both > > > > > approaches. It separates the concerns and respects the platform > will > > be > > > > > canonical for the common workflows supported. This is a very real > > > example > > > > > of Conway's Law btw. [1] > > > > > > > > > > > > Anyhow. Deep breath! Software has bugs, people will report them, > > and > > > > > we'll continue to improve. This is a very large group with a very > > > diverse > > > > > community that spans regular old hackers to the humble web > designers. > > > We > > > > > need to respect that, and maybe be a little more compassionate to > > each > > > > > other too. All software is fucked up, and at the end of the day, it > > is > > > > our > > > > > perpetual job to make it a little less fucked up. > > > > > > > > > > > > [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conway's_law > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Inline image 1] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Oct 17, 2013 at 1:16 PM, Tommy Williams < > > to...@devgeeks.org > > > > > <mailto:to...@devgeeks.org>> wrote: > > > > > > Late to the party due to timezone fun, but I just want to chime > in > > in > > > > > > support of the CLI. > > > > > > > > > > > > As a dev working on an actual nontrivial "real world" app, I > would > > > like > > > > > to > > > > > > let it be known that we (SpiderOak) have been heavy drinkers of > the > > > CLI > > > > > > Kool-Aid since its infancy. > > > > > > > > > > > > We have even managed to get to the point where ./platforms/**/* > is > > > > just a > > > > > > build artefact (mostly by using hooks and tying the whole thing > > > > together > > > > > > with Grunt). > > > > > > > > > > > > We have a fast and fairly complex app (both many core plugins as > > well > > > > > and a > > > > > > few custom/third party ones), that even includes the ability to > > white > > > > > label > > > > > > it with relative ease. > > > > > > > > > > > > I feel pretty strongly in favour of the CLI and strongly advocate > > its > > > > use > > > > > > when asked in the #phonegap IRC channel. > > > > > > > > > > > > Just my opinion, but thought it was important to add to the > > > discussion. > > > > > > > > > > > > - tommy / devgeeks > > > > > > On 18 Oct 2013 04:44, "Anis KADRI" <anis.ka...@gmail.com<mailto: > > > > > anis.ka...@gmail.com>> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > >> Sweet. So I think we all agree (expect Joe perhaps?) that both > > > > > >> approaches should be supported :-) > > > > > >> > > > > > >> On Thu, Oct 17, 2013 at 10:31 AM, Carlos Santana < > > > > csantan...@gmail.com > > > > > <mailto:csantan...@gmail.com>> > > > > > >> wrote: > > > > > >>> I meant in addition of ".cordova/lib" also allow also to do > > > something > > > > > >> like > > > > > >>> "cordova platform add ios > > --path="./cordova_components/cordova-ios" > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> On Thu, Oct 17, 2013 at 1:28 PM, Carlos Santana < > > > > csantan...@gmail.com > > > > > <mailto:csantan...@gmail.com> > > > > > >>> wrote: > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>>> ++1 "to install from a given directory instead of > > .cordova/libs." > > > > > >>>> > > > > > >>>> > > > > > >>>> > > > > > >>>> On Thu, Oct 17, 2013 at 12:10 PM, Viras < > > > > vi...@users.sourceforge.net > > > > > <mailto:vi...@users.sourceforge.net> > > > > > >>> wrote: > > > > > >>>> > > > > > >>>>> This might be true - it took me quite some time to figure out > > how > > > > the > > > > > >> CLI > > > > > >>>>> actually works - despite also having to fix one or two bugs > for > > > the > > > > > WPX > > > > > >>>>> implementation of the CLI code (as well as the Windows 8 CLI > > > code). > > > > > But > > > > > >>>>> still I would hate to see the CLI go, since I think once you > > are > > > > used > > > > > >> to > > > > > >>>>> it, it saves you quite a lot of time (I still have those old > > > > > documents > > > > > >>>>> which guide me through the setup of the IDE projects for the > > > > > different > > > > > >>>>> platforms - which is now mostly obsolete). > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > >>>>> So I guess supporting both methods is the way to go... :) > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > >>>>> Best, > > > > > >>>>> Wolfgang > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > >>>>> Am 2013-10-17 16:13, schrieb Michal Mocny: > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > >>>>> Thanks so much for chiming in, I'm very happy to see that > > you've > > > > > >> figured > > > > > >>>>>> out how to leverage the benefits and avoid the drawbacks of > > the > > > > new > > > > > >>>>>> workflow, and that it has led to increased productivity for > > you. > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > >>>>>> I do think that perhaps it is still too difficult for every > > > > > developer > > > > > >> to > > > > > >>>>>> learn what you already have. > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > >>>>>> -Michal > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > >>>>>> On Thu, Oct 17, 2013 at 12:13 AM, Viras < > > > > > vi...@users.sourceforge.net<mailto:vi...@users.sourceforge.net>> > > > > > >>>>>> wrote: > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > >>>>>> my view on this discussion: > > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>> I've used the CLI to release the latest version of GOFG > > Sports > > > > > >> Computer > > > > > >>>>>>> for Windows Phone. The support for the "merges" directory > is > > a > > > > > >> fantastic > > > > > >>>>>>> feature which allows me to focus on the javascript code > using > > > > e.g. > > > > > >> the > > > > > >>>>>>> NetBeans IDE - I can finally handle all my platform > specific > > > code > > > > > >> from > > > > > >>>>>>> JavaScript in one consistent directory structure - which is > > > what > > > > > >> Cordova > > > > > >>>>>>> should be about. > > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>> In addition the CLI forces you to write clean code (not > > > implying > > > > > that > > > > > >>>>>>> the > > > > > >>>>>>> other method forces to write messy code). If you need > > something > > > > > >> native > > > > > >>>>>>> write a clean plugin for it (which also makes the code > > > reusable) > > > > - > > > > > no > > > > > >>>>>>> need > > > > > >>>>>>> to mess around in the native projects code - this also > makes > > > > > >> upgrading > > > > > >>>>>>> cordova much easier. > > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>> Once I've done the Windows Phone version I've simply added > > > > Android > > > > > >> as a > > > > > >>>>>>> platform, build it and I was done - no need for fiddling > > around > > > > > with > > > > > >>>>>>> SDK / > > > > > >>>>>>> IDE setup etc (besides actually installing it). So CLI is > my > > > > > favorite > > > > > >>>>>>> way > > > > > >>>>>>> to develop now - and it is far more powerful than the old > > > > approach > > > > > >> (in > > > > > >>>>>>> my > > > > > >>>>>>> opinion) - since it saves you from fiddling around with > > project > > > > > >>>>>>> settings, > > > > > >>>>>>> etc. when you do a multi-platform release. > > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>> Oh yes - and GOFG SC uses two custom plugins, 5 official > > > plugins > > > > > and > > > > > >>>>>>> cordova 3.0 - so it is a bit beyond the "Hello World" > > > > > application.... > > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>> And I do not agree that it isn't possible to work with the > > > native > > > > > >> IDEs > > > > > >>>>>>> with their own projects - this is simply wrong since you > can > > > > always > > > > > >> go > > > > > >>>>>>> to > > > > > >>>>>>> the "platforms" directory and open the platform-projects > > using > > > > > their > > > > > >>>>>>> native > > > > > >>>>>>> IDE from there (I've done this myself for e.g. plugin > > > > development). > > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>> Still I agree that both versions should be supported - but > > > don't > > > > > make > > > > > >>>>>>> the > > > > > >>>>>>> assumption that the CLI is for "n00bs" only! > > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>> Best, > > > > > >>>>>>> Wolfgang > > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>> Am 2013-10-16 23:11, schrieb Joe Bowser: > > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>> On Wed, Oct 16, 2013 at 1:37 PM, Michal Mocny < > > > > mmo...@chromium.org > > > > > <mailto:mmo...@chromium.org>> > > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>>> wrote: > > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>>> Anis: Totally agrees, but its important to highlight that > > both > > > > > >>>>>>>>> directions > > > > > >>>>>>>>> for that arguments hold. We've done our best to support > > bin/ > > > > > >> scripts > > > > > >>>>>>>>> post > > > > > >>>>>>>>> 3.0, yet blanket statements like "CLI should not be used > > with > > > > > >> IDE", or > > > > > >>>>>>>>> "CLI > > > > > >>>>>>>>> sucks unless you just doing something trivial" are being > > > thrown > > > > > >>>>>>>>> around, > > > > > >>>>>>>>> which are harmful in my opinion, and I don't think its > fair > > > > that > > > > > >> some > > > > > >>>>>>>>> of > > > > > >>>>>>>>> us > > > > > >>>>>>>>> are promoting that message to users. > > > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>>>> I don't think we're communicating with our users at all, > > so I > > > > > >> don't > > > > > >>>>>>>> see how this could be communicated. When users > communicate > > > > their > > > > > >>>>>>>> frustrations, it's usually something like this > > > > > >>>>>>>> ( > http://www.infil00p.org/****config-xml-changes-for-ios-**< > > > > > >> http://www.infil00p.org/**config-xml-changes-for-ios-**> > > > > > >>>>>>>> and-android/#comment-10731<htt**p:// > > > www.infil00p.org/config-**< > > > > > http://www.infil00p.org/config-**> > > > > > >>>>>>>> xml-changes-for-ios-and-**android/#comment-10731< > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.infil00p.org/config-xml-changes-for-ios-and-android/#comment-10731 > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>>> ) > > > > > >>>>>>>> and this > > > > > >>>>>>>> ( > > > http://www.infil00p.org/****introducing-cordova-3-0-0-for-**** > > > > < > > > > > >> http://www.infil00p.org/**introducing-cordova-3-0-0-for-**> > > > > > >>>>>>>> android/#comment-10694<http://** > > > www.infil00p.org/introducing-** > > > > < > > > > > http://www.infil00p.org/introducing-**> > > > > > >>>>>>>> cordova-3-0-0-for-android/#**comment-10694< > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.infil00p.org/introducing-cordova-3-0-0-for-android/#comment-10694 > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>>> ). > > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>>> CLI works well for me, and while its not perfect, I strive > > to > > > > > learn > > > > > >>>>>>>> its > > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>>>> limitations and make it better, not condemn it. > > > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>>> I avoid it because it's not developed for me, or > developers > > > like > > > > > me > > > > > >>>>>>>> who like to see a big pile of output when things fail. I > > > > avoided > > > > > >>>>>>>> having any part in its development because I thought it > was > > > the > > > > > >> wrong > > > > > >>>>>>>> way to do things. I assumed that the majority of users > > > actually > > > > > >>>>>>>> wanted this and that I should do my best to work around > > this, > > > > but > > > > > >> with > > > > > >>>>>>>> the backlash that we're getting, such as the blog posts > and > > > some > > > > > >>>>>>>> comments on the Google Groups, it seems that this is a > > feature > > > > > very > > > > > >>>>>>>> few people actually wanted. > > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>>> As far as the CordovaWebView use case, I actually have > never > > > > tried > > > > > >>>>>>>> that. > > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>>>> Has anyone bothered to make sure it works well post-3.0, > or > > > > does > > > > > >> Joe > > > > > >>>>>>>>> have > > > > > >>>>>>>>> a point that we missed addressing this? > > > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>>> We have JUnit unit tests in the Android repository to make > > > sure > > > > > that > > > > > >>>>>>>> this still works. However, I would like to see this test > > case > > > > > >>>>>>>> revisited since it may be more appropriate to have > > > > CordovaActivity > > > > > >> be > > > > > >>>>>>>> inherited instead of CordovaInterface, or for both to be > > > > > supported. > > > > > >>>>>>>> This is so that we can make more hybrid applications and > > deal > > > > with > > > > > >> the > > > > > >>>>>>>> fact that we're so brutally non-complaint with Android UI > > > > > guidelines > > > > > >>>>>>>> instead of just ignoring it. I'll probably bring this up > > and > > > > > >> present > > > > > >>>>>>>> more source code when it's ready to explain why we need > this > > > > > feature > > > > > >>>>>>>> in the next couple of weeks, and why it's important to > > respect > > > > the > > > > > >>>>>>>> platform, even when the platform doesn't respect the web. > > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>> -- > > > > > >>>>>>> GOFG - Get On Fat Guy > > > > > >>>>>>> http://www.gofg.at/ - powered by Cordova > > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> -- > > > > > >>>>> GOFG - Get On Fat Guy > > > > > >>>>> http://www.gofg.at/ - powered by Cordova > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > >>>> > > > > > >>>> > > > > > >>>> > > > > > >>>> -- > > > > > >>>> Carlos Santana > > > > > >>>> <csantan...@gmail.com<mailto:csantan...@gmail.com>> > > > > > >>>> > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> -- > > > > > >>> Carlos Santana > > > > > >>> <csantan...@gmail.com<mailto:csantan...@gmail.com>> > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
