On Sat, Dec 1, 2012 at 7:08 PM, Jason van Zyl <ja...@tesla.io> wrote:
> > On Dec 1, 2012, at 1:42 AM, Arnaud Héritier <aherit...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > Ok. Yes that's sure it has to be discussed. That's why I reopened the > subject. > > About the implementation : > > * as a user I have really no preference, I just want the feature > > * as a developer I played with both and for me these are just loggers > > . We may organize a fight between Ceki and Ralph but it won't help I > > think. I agree that log4j2 is in beta which is annoying (? Or not. We > > are talking about a logging lib that is doing some println - but with > > colors ) > > It's not a fight Arnaud, I want the discussion to be about objective > evaluation. > I agree. But in fact there is from my point of view no real evaluation to do now. log4j2 is young and logback the reference implementation commonly used. > > > * as PMC and ASF member I suppose I should say that our projects are > > the best and we should privilege our own stuffs for the safety of our > > ecosystem. > > > > That, Arnaud, is nepotism. If the single strongest selection criterion > here is nepotism then I believe there is no hope for any ecosystem. If > nepotism above maturity, precedent, and use in the field become subordinate > to nepotism and our view of good is bounded by only what's done at Apache > then I believe we are truly in decline. I believe the ecosystem goes far > beyond just what exists at Apache. > > Being at Apache is no guarantee for success, or health -- even with its > powerful marketing and, at times, irrational protectionism. How is SVN > doing compared to Git? How is Apache HTTPD doing compared to NGinx? How is > Mina doing compared to Netty? MyBatis is thriving outside the walls of > Apache since it left, and Logback is selected everywhere even projects at > Apache. There are good things at Apache, there are good things outside > Apache. I see it as an irrational train of through to have to select > everything from Apache. To me it smacks of a form of nationalism which I > believe is unhealthy. > > Honestly how did Log4J2 not have to go through the incubator? There are > barely more than two people who have contributed, by Incubator standards > for diversity -- if you are placing high value on the Apache way -- it > doesn't really cut muster. I don't think it would be allowed out of the > incubator[1] would it? Compared to something like CXF which spent how long > in the incubator? This looks to be a completely new project. > > That development on Log4J stops and that the choice is not to help work on > Logback -- which is clearly the de facto standard -- but start something > else to me seems unwise. To use the project that Ceki started and then stop > working on that to create something to compete with a successful project > that Ceki created outside of Apache just seems like some really nasty > business. I see it as an attempt to legitimize a project that has no > traction with a project that does. > > If you were going to select something at work for a critical project you > were working on would you really pick Log4J2 over Logback? I honestly don't > think anyone would. I don't believe the mechanics of selecting and building > software in the outside world should be anything different here. At the > point of selection you pick best of breed to mitigate risk and integration > problems. > LOL it was mainly a sarcasm this 3rd point. I should have add a smiley. For me if we had to choose "now" log4J2 as the implementation it could be done with this reason. I have nothing against log4J and I'm sure it will have a great future and may be a good challenger for logback. I may understand this reason to select it and I have nothing against it, nor I'm afraid about it because I'm sure that like for logback we'll have the support of the dev team. > > At any rate we can compare the implementations and discuss. As the RM I > don't want to integrate a logging framework in 3.1.0. > +1 Fine for me. > > [1]: > http://svnsearch.org/svnsearch/repos/ASF/search?path=%2Flogging%2Flog4j%2Flog4j2 > > > Cheers. > > > > --------- > > Arnaud > > > > Le 1 déc. 2012 à 09:26, Jason van Zyl <ja...@tesla.io> a écrit : > > > >> > >> On Dec 1, 2012, at 12:17 AM, Arnaud Héritier <aherit...@gmail.com> > wrote: > >> > >>> Hi Jason, > >>> > >>> Couldn't we have a look at olamy's log4j2 branch to see if we could > >>> sanitize / merge it to propose at least one change for the end user > >>> and demonstrate the interest of the change about logs : a colorized > >>> console. > >> > >> Not without discussion about the implementation. To me the obvious > choice is Logback and using Log4J2 makes no sense. Olivier disagrees so > there will be a discussion. I've been working on the release but I plan to > make a branch using Logback so we have a basis for discussion. > >> > >>> > >>> I remember you did that in mvnsh/teslashell a long time ago (as an > >>> extension ?) and perhaps it could be easy to add properly this feature > >>> in 3.1.0 (otherwise it won't be before a 3.2.0). > >>> > >>> Myself I'm using a 3.1.0 fork with this patch and I' m really > >>> satisfied (it's so good to quickly see highlighted warning and errors > >>> ). I merged it back in the last 3.1.0 tag you did without issue > >>> > >>> Wdyt? > >> > >> Just as easy with Logback, the only difference being Logback is a > mature solution. So I'm sure there's going to be a discussion. > >> > >>> > >>> --------- > >>> Arnaud > >>> > >>> Le 1 déc. 2012 à 00:20, Jason van Zyl <ja...@tesla.io> a écrit : > >>> > >>>> I'm done with the issues that cropped up so I'm ready to re-spin > 3.1.0. > >>>> > >>>> Anyone want to add anything or discuss anything before I spin this? > I'm not in any rush so if folks want to talk about logging we can. But > given the fact once SLF4J initializes it can't change the implementation > plugins integrating with Maven need to use the implementation we choose. > This is how everything else in the world that integrates SLF4J has to > operate so I don't really see us being any different. > >>>> > >>>> I'll wait until tomorrow to re-spin. > >>>> > >>>> Thanks, > >>>> > >>>> Jason > >>>> > >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------- > >>>> Jason van Zyl > >>>> Founder & CTO, Sonatype > >>>> Founder, Apache Maven > >>>> http://twitter.com/jvanzyl > >>>> --------------------------------------------------------- > >>> > >>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@maven.apache.org > >>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@maven.apache.org > >> > >> Thanks, > >> > >> Jason > >> > >> ---------------------------------------------------------- > >> Jason van Zyl > >> Founder & CTO, Sonatype > >> Founder, Apache Maven > >> http://twitter.com/jvanzyl > >> --------------------------------------------------------- > >> > >> Simplex sigillum veri. (Simplicity is the seal of truth.) > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@maven.apache.org > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@maven.apache.org > > > > Thanks, > > Jason > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Jason van Zyl > Founder & CTO, Sonatype > Founder, Apache Maven > http://twitter.com/jvanzyl > --------------------------------------------------------- > > I never make the mistake of arguing with people for whose opinions I have > no respect. > > -- Edward Gibbon > > > > > > -- ----- Arnaud Héritier http://aheritier.net Mail/GTalk: aheritier AT gmail DOT com Twitter/Skype : aheritier
