On Dec 1, 2012, at 10:23 AM, Benson Margulies <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Sat, Dec 1, 2012 at 1:08 PM, Jason van Zyl <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> On Dec 1, 2012, at 1:42 AM, Arnaud Héritier <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> Ok. Yes that's sure it has to be discussed. That's why I reopened the >>> subject. >>> About the implementation : >>> * as a user I have really no preference, I just want the feature >>> * as a developer I played with both and for me these are just loggers >>> . We may organize a fight between Ceki and Ralph but it won't help I >>> think. I agree that log4j2 is in beta which is annoying (? Or not. We >>> are talking about a logging lib that is doing some println - but with >>> colors ) >> >> It's not a fight Arnaud, I want the discussion to be about objective >> evaluation. >> >>> * as PMC and ASF member I suppose I should say that our projects are >>> the best and we should privilege our own stuffs for the safety of our >>> ecosystem. >>> >> >> That, Arnaud, is nepotism. If the single strongest selection criterion here >> is nepotism then I believe there is no hope for any ecosystem. If nepotism >> above maturity, precedent, and use in the field become subordinate to >> nepotism and our view of good is bounded by only what's done at Apache then >> I believe we are truly in decline. I believe the ecosystem goes far beyond >> just what exists at Apache. > > I wouldn't say, 'nepotism,' but I agree with the bottom line of > Jason's argument. I would say it's pretty close the definition: favoritism granted to relatives regardless of merit. Log4J2 is completely unproven in the world at large and at this particular junction. It may well become the best logging framework with the most vibrant community. It's not today but today is what we're talking about. Not what might be. I'm just pointing out that I believe Arnaud's criterion for selection of the library being present at Apache is invalid. That you would be hard pressed to find anyone, anywhere who today would pick Log4J2 over Logback. My counter argument to that line of reasoning is what happened to the people who picked MINA? Netty is crushing it. MINA doesn't appear particular active or innovative[1]. Twitter hired a Netty developer, not a MINA developer. Maybe it could have turned out differently and MINA would be crushing it. The point is where a project sits is no indication of its potential success, health or otherwise. You pick something based on its merits when you need it. And yes Log4J2 being used in Maven would help it greatly. Maven is one of the most widely known and used projects in the Java ecosystem. It would be the first thing that showed up on their powered by page, and they would cite Maven to other projects as a reason to use it. Absolutely guaranteed. If you're telling me that hasn't crossed their minds I'd say that's a naive perspective. No one uses your stuff if they can't find others who use it. I doubt you pick libraries no one else uses. To try and catapult a project through a relationship to me is an abuse in an ostensibly merit-based community. I'm not going to veto the use of Log4J2 but I'm definitely going to force people to think about why they would choose it. I once picked a library because I thought it would be a great addition to Maven and thought it would grow and eventually be great because it was at Apache. That library was called Jelly (sorry James :-)). That wasn't exactly a great choice. It could have gone otherwise but again my point is you don't look at what-ifs and make the decision based on the information available today. Logback is a successful project today that lots of people use, including projects here. [1]: http://svnsearch.org/svnsearch/repos/ASF/search?path=%2Fmina > The ASF is like Harvard College: "Every tub on its > own bottom." We pay attention to licensing issues, but we don't go far > out of our way to use the output of another ASF project rather than > something that happens to come from somewhere else. Jason, Arnaud is > not, as far as I know, quoting any policy prescription of the ASF. The > ASF is not trying to be an 'ecosystem', especially a closed ecosystem. > It is trying to provide a home for projects that follow its > principles. > > My contribution to the hot air fund here is this: I think that the > idea of 'competition' in open source is often misguided. There's > generally plenty of room for many different variations on many > different themes. Many build tools, many logging frameworks, many > foundations. I don't think that a decision by Maven to use the new > log4j will give them any meaningful boost towards success in Apache > terms (being a vibrant community), nor will deciding to look elsewhere > give them a significant ding. > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [email protected] > For additional commands, e-mail: [email protected] > Thanks, Jason ---------------------------------------------------------- Jason van Zyl Founder & CTO, Sonatype Founder, Apache Maven http://twitter.com/jvanzyl --------------------------------------------------------- the course of true love never did run smooth ... -- Shakespeare
