On Dec 1, 2012, at 1:42 AM, Arnaud Héritier <[email protected]> wrote:
> Ok. Yes that's sure it has to be discussed. That's why I reopened the subject. > About the implementation : > * as a user I have really no preference, I just want the feature > * as a developer I played with both and for me these are just loggers > . We may organize a fight between Ceki and Ralph but it won't help I > think. I agree that log4j2 is in beta which is annoying (? Or not. We > are talking about a logging lib that is doing some println - but with > colors ) It's not a fight Arnaud, I want the discussion to be about objective evaluation. > * as PMC and ASF member I suppose I should say that our projects are > the best and we should privilege our own stuffs for the safety of our > ecosystem. > That, Arnaud, is nepotism. If the single strongest selection criterion here is nepotism then I believe there is no hope for any ecosystem. If nepotism above maturity, precedent, and use in the field become subordinate to nepotism and our view of good is bounded by only what's done at Apache then I believe we are truly in decline. I believe the ecosystem goes far beyond just what exists at Apache. Being at Apache is no guarantee for success, or health -- even with its powerful marketing and, at times, irrational protectionism. How is SVN doing compared to Git? How is Apache HTTPD doing compared to NGinx? How is Mina doing compared to Netty? MyBatis is thriving outside the walls of Apache since it left, and Logback is selected everywhere even projects at Apache. There are good things at Apache, there are good things outside Apache. I see it as an irrational train of through to have to select everything from Apache. To me it smacks of a form of nationalism which I believe is unhealthy. Honestly how did Log4J2 not have to go through the incubator? There are barely more than two people who have contributed, by Incubator standards for diversity -- if you are placing high value on the Apache way -- it doesn't really cut muster. I don't think it would be allowed out of the incubator[1] would it? Compared to something like CXF which spent how long in the incubator? This looks to be a completely new project. That development on Log4J stops and that the choice is not to help work on Logback -- which is clearly the de facto standard -- but start something else to me seems unwise. To use the project that Ceki started and then stop working on that to create something to compete with a successful project that Ceki created outside of Apache just seems like some really nasty business. I see it as an attempt to legitimize a project that has no traction with a project that does. If you were going to select something at work for a critical project you were working on would you really pick Log4J2 over Logback? I honestly don't think anyone would. I don't believe the mechanics of selecting and building software in the outside world should be anything different here. At the point of selection you pick best of breed to mitigate risk and integration problems. At any rate we can compare the implementations and discuss. As the RM I don't want to integrate a logging framework in 3.1.0. [1]: http://svnsearch.org/svnsearch/repos/ASF/search?path=%2Flogging%2Flog4j%2Flog4j2 > Cheers. > > --------- > Arnaud > > Le 1 déc. 2012 à 09:26, Jason van Zyl <[email protected]> a écrit : > >> >> On Dec 1, 2012, at 12:17 AM, Arnaud Héritier <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> Hi Jason, >>> >>> Couldn't we have a look at olamy's log4j2 branch to see if we could >>> sanitize / merge it to propose at least one change for the end user >>> and demonstrate the interest of the change about logs : a colorized >>> console. >> >> Not without discussion about the implementation. To me the obvious choice is >> Logback and using Log4J2 makes no sense. Olivier disagrees so there will be >> a discussion. I've been working on the release but I plan to make a branch >> using Logback so we have a basis for discussion. >> >>> >>> I remember you did that in mvnsh/teslashell a long time ago (as an >>> extension ?) and perhaps it could be easy to add properly this feature >>> in 3.1.0 (otherwise it won't be before a 3.2.0). >>> >>> Myself I'm using a 3.1.0 fork with this patch and I' m really >>> satisfied (it's so good to quickly see highlighted warning and errors >>> ). I merged it back in the last 3.1.0 tag you did without issue >>> >>> Wdyt? >> >> Just as easy with Logback, the only difference being Logback is a mature >> solution. So I'm sure there's going to be a discussion. >> >>> >>> --------- >>> Arnaud >>> >>> Le 1 déc. 2012 à 00:20, Jason van Zyl <[email protected]> a écrit : >>> >>>> I'm done with the issues that cropped up so I'm ready to re-spin 3.1.0. >>>> >>>> Anyone want to add anything or discuss anything before I spin this? I'm >>>> not in any rush so if folks want to talk about logging we can. But given >>>> the fact once SLF4J initializes it can't change the implementation plugins >>>> integrating with Maven need to use the implementation we choose. This is >>>> how everything else in the world that integrates SLF4J has to operate so I >>>> don't really see us being any different. >>>> >>>> I'll wait until tomorrow to re-spin. >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> >>>> Jason >>>> >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------- >>>> Jason van Zyl >>>> Founder & CTO, Sonatype >>>> Founder, Apache Maven >>>> http://twitter.com/jvanzyl >>>> --------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [email protected] >>> For additional commands, e-mail: [email protected] >> >> Thanks, >> >> Jason >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------- >> Jason van Zyl >> Founder & CTO, Sonatype >> Founder, Apache Maven >> http://twitter.com/jvanzyl >> --------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Simplex sigillum veri. (Simplicity is the seal of truth.) >> >> >> >> >> > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [email protected] > For additional commands, e-mail: [email protected] > Thanks, Jason ---------------------------------------------------------- Jason van Zyl Founder & CTO, Sonatype Founder, Apache Maven http://twitter.com/jvanzyl --------------------------------------------------------- I never make the mistake of arguing with people for whose opinions I have no respect. -- Edward Gibbon
