On 25 July 2013 22:55, Paul Benedict <pbened...@apache.org> wrote: > Agreed. I'll tip my hand and give my opinion: PMC members should have an > "Apache first" mentality. They are gatekeepers and guardians of their > project. Spinning off critical code to other OSS organizations should be > frowned upon -- it splits the development and wider community into smaller > pieces.
+1 > NB: My original response was just criticism of the commitment wording. It's > nice to say what commitments PMC members should have, but if there's no way > to enforce it, it puts into question why the commitments are even expected. > AFAIK, merit at Apache is forever -- you can't have it undone. If someone > loses their "Apache first" spirit and begins critical development > elsewhere, what can be done about it? Are there any practical recourses? I > don't think there is which is why Maven development has that problem today. Surely the PMC can vote to remove individuals from the PMC if necessary? If the PMC as a whole agrees to a particular code of conduct, then anyone who does not conform should be politely reminded (on the private@ list) of their responsibilities. Only if the non-conforming behaviour persists should further action be taken. > > > On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 4:36 PM, John Casey <jdca...@commonjava.org> wrote: > >> On 7/25/13 4:17 PM, Paul Benedict wrote: >> >>> Stephen, those are great questions. Yet, I think these questions are >>> riding >>> an assumption that PMC members are solely volunteering at Apache, because >>> the emphasis (as I interpret your words) is to place the Apache project >>> first/above other external contributions. Isn't that the heart of this >>> debate? A person who solely contributes to Apache and no other OS >>> organizations has no divided loyalties -- they do all their work here. But >>> what happens when contributions are here and elsewhere? I ask >>> rhetorically, >>> to solicit answers, of course... and I see where this is going and what >>> historical processes within Maven are being addressed. >>> >> >> >> I don't think it's about whether you contribute elsewhere or not. It's >> about whether you expect to do a ton of work outside the community here, >> outside the commit logs and the review, in order to avoid the discussion >> and potential for veto. >> >> Working in this way opens the possibility for changing the rules for who >> gets to contribute, especially when code diverges for long periods then >> gets reconciled with a massive rebase. >> >> ASF is supposed to be about more than code. We're supposed to be working >> together on this project. I feel like the above hamstrings that whole >> process. >> >> And note: I'm only suggesting that the PMC - who is supposed to have the >> long-term interests of *this* project at heart - be held to a higher >> standard, to provide an example for the rest of the project. This is not >> saying you're stuck working solely within Maven just because you're on the >> PMC; it's saying that you should promote the health of the community by >> making sure the processes in place work as well as possible. >> >> ASF membership is supposed to be reserved for those who "get" the Apache >> Way, and I've heard it said that PMC membership should imply ASF >> membership. IMO, working for extended periods outside of the venues for our >> community is not consistent with having the best interests of this project >> in mind. >> >> >> >>> >>> On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 4:05 PM, Stephen Connolly < >>> stephen.alan.connolly@gmail.**com <stephen.alan.conno...@gmail.com>> >>> wrote: >>> >>> Perhaps we could reframe the question a little then (as people seem to be >>>> testing hung up on the committed wording)... >>>> >>>> Should the PMC encourage people experimenting on new improvements to >>>> Maven >>>> to do that work at the ASF? And if so, should they then practice what >>>> they >>>> preach, and ensure that any experiments with Maven take place on the ASF >>>> SCM servers (at least once such experiments become semi-serious or >>>> progress >>>> enough not to cause egg-on-face syndrome)? >>>> >>>> Shoud the PMC promote other Apache projects, or moving non-Apache >>>> projects >>>> to Apache? (Right now, to work on an issue in core and effect the change >>>> yourself you may need to establish merit with: Apache Maven, Eclipse >>>> Sisu, >>>> Eclipse Aether, Plexus, Apache Commons, Classworlds, etc. Now it may be >>>> fine with half of these at Eclipse and the ther half here... Or maybe >>>> not... But that is a lot of projects where you need to establish merit >>>> and >>>> perhaps maintain merit just to be able to commit directly (which >>>> sometimes >>>> is the only way to effect the type of cross system changes that some of >>>> our >>>> more obscure bugs may require... GIT makes this less of a requirement, as >>>> patches on SVN are a PITA, though) ) >>>> >>>> These types of questions need resolution as they will, further down the >>>> road, rise up again and cause wounds... Eg logback vs log4j2 is one that >>>> simmers at the edge (any time anyone mentioned coloured loggers) >>>> >>>> -Stephen >>>> >>>> On Thursday, 25 July 2013, Paul Benedict wrote: >>>> >>>> I don't think it is possible to force volunteer efforts and/or limit >>>>> development elsewhere. The idea of supporting a project is a vague >>>>> >>>> notion. >>>> >>>>> I have my opinions too but this language is clearly unenforceable and >>>>> impractical. >>>>> >>>>> Cheers, >>>>> Paul >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 9:30 AM, Markus Karg <k...@quipsy.de> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> As a Maven user I think that everybody who is working on a project >>>>>> >>>>> should >>>> >>>>> behave the same. Hence, I would say, PMC members should rather >>>>>> >>>>> certainly >>>> >>>>> demonstrate how to live the community rules. >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- >>>>>> Von: Stephen Connolly >>>>>> [mailto:stephen.alan.connolly@**gmail.com<stephen.alan.conno...@gmail.com> >>>>>> ] >>>>>> Gesendet: Donnerstag, 25. Juli 2013 15:16 >>>>>> An: Maven Users List; Maven Developers List >>>>>> Betreff: [DISCUSS] Should the Maven PMC be an example of how we want >>>>>> >>>>> the >>>> >>>>> Maven Community to behave (was Re: svn commit: r1506778 - >>>>>> /maven/site/trunk/content/**markdown/project-roles.md) >>>>>> >>>>>> There are two schools of thought amongst the current members of this >>>>>> projects PMC. >>>>>> >>>>>> Without wanting to deliberately tip my hand and reveal where my opinion >>>>>> is, we would like to solicit the opinions if the community that we >>>>>> >>>>> serve. >>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Please give us your thoughts. >>>>>> >>>>>> The topic is essentially: >>>>>> >>>>>> Do you want the members of the Maven PMC to be social leaders of the >>>>>> >>>>> Maven >>>>> >>>>>> community, who's actions demonstrate the best community behaviour? >>>>>> >>>>>> The alternative is that members of the Maven PMC are here purely to >>>>>> complete the legal requirements that an Apache TLP has delegated to >>>>>> >>>>> PMCs >>>> >>>>> >>>>>> This is not black and white... The answer can be grey... And everyone >>>>>> >>>>> is >>>> >>>>> human so can make mistakes... >>>>>> >>>>>> So community, what are you expecting? >>>>>> >>>>>> - Stephen Connolly >>>>>> >>>>>> On Thursday, 25 July 2013, wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Author: jdcasey >>>>>>> Date: Wed Jul 24 23:21:58 2013 >>>>>>> New Revision: 1506778 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> URL: http://svn.apache.org/r1506778 >>>>>>> Log: >>>>>>> Adding section on PMC standards of community commitment >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Modified: >>>>>>> maven/site/trunk/content/**markdown/project-roles.md >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Modified: maven/site/trunk/content/**markdown/project-roles.md >>>>>>> URL: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://svn.apache.org/viewvc/**maven/site/trunk/content/** >>>> markdown/project<http://svn.apache.org/viewvc/maven/site/trunk/content/markdown/project> >>>> >>>>> -roles.md?rev=1506778&r1=**1506777&r2=1506778&view=diff<http://roles.md?rev=1506778&r1=1506777&r2=1506778&view=diff> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ==============================**==============================** >>>> ========== >>>> >>>>> ======== >>>>>>> --- maven/site/trunk/content/**markdown/project-roles.md (original) >>>>>>> +++ maven/site/trunk/content/**markdown/project-roles.md Wed Jul 24 >>>>>>> 23:21:58 2013 >>>>>>> @@ -176,6 +176,29 @@ The Project Management Committee has the >>>>>>> * Voting on release artifacts. >>>>>>> * <!-- TODO: get the rest of these --> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> +#### Standards for Community Commitment >>>>>>> + >>>>>>> +In the spirit of supporting the health of our community, Project >>>>>>> +Management Committee members refrain from actions that subvert the >>>>>>> +functioning of the committee itself. >>>>>>> + >>>>>>> +First, Project Management Committee members should not maintain >>>>>>> long-running >>>>>>> +forks of Maven code outside of the project itself. Making >>>>>>> >>>>>> significant >>>> >>>>> +changes to Maven code outside of the project displays a lack of >>>>>>> +investment in the community. Additionally, attempting to >>>>>>> >>>>>> re-integrate >>>> >>>>> +a large number of code changes in bulk overwhelms the ability of >>>>>>> +volunteers in the community to review (and potentially veto) the >>>>>>> +changes. This effectively thwarts the policing function of the PMC. >>>>>>> + >>>>>>> +Second, Project Management Committee members should not divert work >>>>>>> +on redesigning, reimplementing, or improving Maven code to >>>>>>> +alternative projects outside of this community for the purposes of >>>>>>> +reintroducing them as replacement for existing Maven code. While >>>>>>> +there is a danger he> To unsubscribe, e-mail: >>>>>>> >>>>>> dev-unsubscribe@maven.apache.**org >>>>>> <dev-unsubscr...@maven.apache.org><javascript:;> >>>>> >>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@maven.apache.org >>>>>> >>>>> <javascript:;> >>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Cheers, >>>>> Paul >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Sent from my phone >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> -- >> John Casey >> GitHub - http://github.com/jdcasey >> > > > > -- > Cheers, > Paul --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@maven.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@maven.apache.org
