I agree with you Tim, effective giving and responding to feedback is vitally important to successful collaboration and all of us working together to build a strong community and make good software. Scott's response to my recent multi-tenant changes is a great example of such feedback, and hopefully I'll be able to respond to that feedback in a helpful way.
That is a bit different than the issue here, which is that Jacques seemed to be trying to get people to do certain things because of rules. Confronting others on bad behavior or breaking rules is a good thing IMO, but this was going beyond that with a specific interpretation of the rules that didn't seem to fit and specific remedies to the indiscretions that also seemed somewhat unhelpful (ie getting into legal interpretations and remedies that are not consistent with what others understood of laws and ASF policies), and then going even beyond that to threaten an appeal to greater authority and possible legal action if the demands were not met, calling it all "justice". And yeah, I have a problem with that, hence my message to confront Jacques for that behavior. Stepping to back to really effective communication and problem solving, if I were to push anything I guess it would be to read the book "Simpleology" by Mark Joyner. That book is full of excellent stuff about problem solving and collaborating with others. While I'm plugging books I can't help but mention "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance" by Robert Pirsig. It's a fun read and does the best job I've ever seen of dealing with the sometimes maddening topics of quality and subject/object distinction (some key elements of clear and useful thinking). Okay, that's only related to this topic so much, but I had to mention it. This makes me want to sit down and do some reading (or go for a walk and do some listening), but I guess I'm having too much fun redesigning the foundation of my career (which has been cathartic and refreshing, sort of a Moqui ball like experience). -David On Mar 7, 2010, at 4:22 PM, Tim Ruppert wrote: > My real question would be why is it always "hurting" people to bring up that > the rules as they have been defined have been broken again? What was done > wasn't correct, people mentioned it nicely, but then that wasn't ok - and it > goes from there. > > The simple process of someone breaking the rules or stretching the truth > SHOULD be able to be brought up - and instead of defensiveness, it should be > greeted with, "Man, I'm so sorry, let's look into that together." Instead, > an innocuous request to revert something that doesn't follow the PMC > guidelines - or anyone's for that matter - was met with resistance and a > passive aggressive comment meant to say that the original committer felt > attacked. > > I think you need to start there - figuring out ways to get people to not be > defensive in the face of someone looking at their work - then you can get > back to building up the process of having people work together. When someone > cries wolf every time anyone else mentions anything about the work - instead > of taking the initiative to engage in the dialog - then that's where this > slippery slope starts. It really shouldn't go downhill when someone > questioning a commit - that should happen MORE often IMO - and the project > would be better for it. > > Cheers, > Ruppert > > On Mar 7, 2010, at 4:16 PM, David E Jones wrote: > >> >> Hmmmm... given the misunderstanding of other things I've written (seems to >> be from an incorrect guess at motives and goals for what I write), I guess >> we'll see how this goes. Maybe in advance I should say that my point is that >> "Justice" is not an effective way to get people to do, or not do, something. >> >> The type of justice you're talking about is not following the rules, it is >> trying to get other people to follow the rules. Unfortunately justice >> efforts are usually not about restitution and are instead about punishment. >> And what is the point of that if not some form of revenge? >> >> People may feel better about being mean or harming others because the others >> have broken some rule, but I'd hardly say that justifies the meanness and >> harm, even if we do call that "justice". If there is a bad law do you feel >> an obligation to follow it, or do you feel justified in harming others >> because it allows you to? If so then you're in a group with most people in >> the world who think that they can blame their actions on those who make the >> rules or tell them to do (or not do) something. >> >> Back to the point... how much use has that been here? Has it helped us all >> get along and collaborate to produce better software? >> >> -David >> >> >> On Mar 7, 2010, at 2:36 PM, Jacques Le Roux wrote: >> >>> I have any revenge in this. Justice is "follow the rules". Who make the >>> rules is another problem. >>> >>> Jacques >>> >>> From: "David E Jones" <d...@me.com> >>>> What does justice have to do with this? Also, is justice really a priority >>>> for people? >>>> >>>> I'll state clearly that it is not for me. Justice is highly subjective and >>>> usually just a nice way of saying "revenge". >>>> >>>> -David >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mar 7, 2010, at 9:29 AM, Jacques Le Roux wrote: >>>> >>>>> From: "Scott Gray" <scott.g...@hotwaxmedia.com> >>>>>>> I should be pretty clear at this moment. The works "Apache" "OFBiz" and >>>>>>> the phrase "Apache OFBiz" are ASF trademarks: >>>>>>> http://www.apache.org/foundation/marks/ (I use references to sections >>>>>>> of this page in the following) >>>>>>> So they can't be used in domain name (cf. section "Using Apache >>>>>>> trademarks in domain names"). Hans can't use >>>>>>> http://twitter.com/apache_ofbiz alone as an individual or for his >>>>>>> company. >>>>> >>>>>> This is a domain name: twitter.com >>>>>> This is a URL: twitter.com/apache_ofbiz >>>>> >>>>> Yes I was wrong on that one, so I can see no problems with >>>>> http://twitter.com/ofbizbyhotwax or http://twitter.com/ofbiz_help and I'm >>>>> happy with that. >>>>> >>>>>> So the first half of your message is completely invalid and threatening >>>>>> to contact higher level ASF admins before discussing it on >>>>>> the private list is bad form IMO. >>>>> >>>>> Not completly, some arguments still stand and it would have been easier >>>>> if you have kept them in your answer. Notably the name+logo >>>>> on http://twitter.com/apache_ofbiz which was the main reason I wrote this >>>>> message. I must say that in an effort to not put all on >>>>> this Tweeter account I thought about this wrong domain idea. >>>>> >>>>>> Secondly, use of the OFBiz name and logo on service provider websites >>>>>> absolutely falls within the realm of nominative fair use IMO. >>>>>> How are you supposed to offer development and support services for OFBiz >>>>>> if you cannot mention the name OFBiz and display the logo? >>>>> >>>>> Yes in most cases it's fair and I did not reproach anything else about >>>>> that than on http://twitter.com/apache_ofbiz >>>>> >>>>>> The fact that some logo uses do not link back to the project is a minor >>>>>> issue and can easily be rectified without scaremongering by >>>>>> sending a polite message directly to the service provider in question. >>>>> >>>>> If people are aware of it, why they did not do it then? This was the >>>>> reason of my message. When you want justice, you can't hide >>>>> facts, even minor ones. >>>>> >>>>>> Let's be clear, we want people to market OFBiz for us because we do not >>>>>> have the resources to do an adequate job of it ourselves. >>>>>> The thing that I think we should be most concerned about and actively >>>>>> "police" is what is written at the bottom of the ASF >>>>>> guideline document: >>>>> "Nothing in this ASF policy statement shall be interpreted to allow any >>>>> third party to claim any association with the Apache >>>>> Software Foundation or any of its projects or to imply any approval or >>>>> support by ASF for any third party products or services." >>>>> >>>>> Yes that's the point, I totally agree >>>>> >>>>>> We should be encouraging people to market OFBiz and instead of sending >>>>>> out threatening emails. >>>>> >>>>> If things are clean and follow the rule it's fine with me >>>>> >>>>>> And lastly, haven't there been enough arguments on the dev list for one >>>>>> week? Do you really need to spark another one right now? >>>>>> Constant bickering just makes us all look bad. >>>>> >>>>> Bickering is a new word for me, thanks for that. I don't care about >>>>> lookin "bad", I just want justice. >>>>> >>>>> Jacques >>>>> >>>>> Regards >>>>> Scott >>>>> >>>>> On 7/03/2010, at 7:20 AM, Jacques Le Roux wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Scott, >>>>>> >>>>>> Could you explain which part(s) I'm mis-interpreting and what is >>>>>> irrelevant in my message? >>>>>> >>>>>> Jacques >>>>>> >>>>>> From: "Scott Gray" <scott.g...@hotwaxmedia.com> >>>>>> Jacques, you are mis-interpreting the contents of that ASF document and >>>>>> I really would prefer it if you kept your thoughts to the >>>>>> private list. This way we can correct you before you start scaring >>>>>> people away from marketing the project for us. >>>>>> >>>>>> Thank you >>>>>> Scott >>>>>> >>>>>> On 7/03/2010, at 2:20 AM, Jacques Le Roux wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Hey guys, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> This could be so easy :/ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hans agreed to give the credentials to all commiters but he asked us to >>>>>>> send him a demand. >>>>>>> We don't need to ask, if it's open Hans sould send all commiters the >>>>>>> credential to share apache_ofbiz Twitter account. >>>>>>> I should be pretty clear at this moment. The works "Apache" "OFBiz" and >>>>>>> the phrase "Apache OFBiz" are ASF trademarks: >>>>>>> http://www.apache.org/foundation/marks/ (I use references to sections >>>>>>> of this page in the following) >>>>>>> So they can't be used in domain name (cf. section "Using Apache >>>>>>> trademarks in domain names"). Hans can't use >>>>>>> http://twitter.com/apache_ofbiz alone as an individual or for his >>>>>>> company. >>>>>>> So please, for the last time, Hans before I ring Shane Curcuru's bell >>>>>>> (current VP, Apache Brand Management), simply send >>>>>>> credentials to all commiters and the war is over (Note that, though I >>>>>>> don't think it's the way to go, I already asked you to send >>>>>>> me credentials as you suggested, but did not receive anything yet). >>>>>>> Then I suggest to put the button like you did Hans. It's a >>>>>>> *great idea* and I'm sure you will appreciate to have an help on >>>>>>> feeding the tweets as you already suggested. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://twitter.com/apache_ofbiz is a special case because not only it >>>>>>> uses ASF trademark in domain name but it also shows it on >>>>>>> the page, along with OFBiz logo not going back to >>>>>>> http://ofbiz.apache.org/ (cf. section "Using the Apache Foo (and >>>>>>> similar) >>>>>>> graphic logos") >>>>>>> But I don't see a reason why the rule for the domain should not apply >>>>>>> also to >>>>>>> http://twitter.com/ofbiz_help >>>>>>> http://twitter.com/ofbizbyhotwax >>>>>>> And Hans just followed the path actually... (is there other cases?) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Some other points which are related and worth to be noted >>>>>>> Hotwax Media must care about how they use the OFBiz logo in their pages >>>>>>> at http://www.hotwaxmedia.com. The rule is that if it's >>>>>>> not adapted (like Hans did for OFBiz in Thailand at , it should only >>>>>>> link back to http://ofbiz.apache.org/ >>>>>>> Same for the footer of http://www.antwebsystems.com/control/main (the >>>>>>> "OFBiz feather" used for the tweet could be ok if all >>>>>>> commiters get credentials and the PMC agree is the OFBiz official >>>>>>> Tweeter account). Now http://www.ofbiz.in.th/ is wrong also as >>>>>>> long it's not on the ASF infra (ofbiz should not be used in domain name >>>>>>> outsided of ASF infrastructure, is there other cases?) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> It's time to clean the house, before all this becomes unmanageable >>>>>>> (proliferation). I made my best to explain the rules, if you >>>>>>> see a flaw in my reasoning please correct me. If you see other cases >>>>>>> that should be corrected, chime in, it's your duty! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> And please also understand that it's really not pleaseant for me (or >>>>>>> anyone else I guess) to play the cop and spend so much time >>>>>>> on this (for persons out of PMC, we already shared some about this >>>>>>> privately). I dot it only because I'm a third party (ie not >>>>>>> HWM affiliated nor Ant Web) and I like things to be clear and no >>>>>>> injustices prevail. If we continue to ignore this facts they >>>>>>> will finally blow up in our faces (as this Tweeter account issue being >>>>>>> to show) and nobody will win anything. There are rules, >>>>>>> why not simply follow them, is that so hard? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Jacques >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> From: "Tim Ruppert" <tim.rupp...@hotwaxmedia.com> >>>>>>>> Hans, please revert this one too - sorry. It wouldn't make sense for >>>>>>>> all service providers to do this - so please let's not >>>>>>>> keep doing this stuff. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> What i would recommend for this kind of stuff, if we need to list it >>>>>>>> at all, would be to enhance the service providers page on >>>>>>>> the wiki. I mentioned this earlier but maybe we should add a full >>>>>>>> page, linked from the service provider page, where people >>>>>>>> can put this type of info? I personally think this is what your own >>>>>>>> website is for, but I'm all for enhancing everyone's >>>>>>>> ability to get the word out. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> What does everyone think of that as a place to promote yourself? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>>> Ruppert >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> Tim Ruppert >>>>>>>> HotWax Media >>>>>>>> http://www.hotwaxmedia.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> o:801.649.6594 >>>>>>>> f:801.649.6595 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Mar 6, 2010, at 7:22 PM, Scott Gray <scott.g...@hotwaxmedia.com> >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I'm only going to send one email about this, If anyone else cares >>>>>>>>> they can push it. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> This is news: >>>>>>>>>> <a href="http://www.twitter.com/apache_ofbiz/"; target="_blank">Now >>>>>>>>>> OFBiz on <b>TWITTER</b>, follow the news from an enduser >>>>>>>>>> perspective</a>, up to one tweet per day. >>>>>>>>> A link to your home page is not: >>>>>>>>>> You can also promote OFBiz at your site with this news, look <a >>>>>>>>>> href="http://www.antwebsystems.com";>here for an example.</a> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Why you are constantly trying to push the boundaries I have no idea. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Regards >>>>>>>>> Scott >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 6/03/2010, at 6:14 PM, hans...@apache.org wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Author: hansbak >>>>>>>>>> Date: Sun Mar 7 01:14:19 2010 >>>>>>>>>> New Revision: 919905 >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> URL: http://svn.apache.org/viewvc?rev=919905&view=rev >>>>>>>>>> Log: >>>>>>>>>> announcing the ofbiz twitter news now in line with the other news >>>>>>>>>> offerings. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Modified: >>>>>>>>>> ofbiz/site/index.html >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Modified: ofbiz/site/index.html >>>>>>>>>> URL: >>>>>>>>>> http://svn.apache.org/viewvc/ofbiz/site/index.html?rev=919905&r1=919904&r2=919905&view=diff >>>>>>>>>> === === === >>>>>>>>>> ===================================================================== >>>>>>>>>> --- ofbiz/site/index.html (original) >>>>>>>>>> +++ ofbiz/site/index.html Sun Mar 7 01:14:19 2010 >>>>>>>>>> @@ -237,6 +237,7 @@ >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> <h2>In the News</h2> >>>>>>>>>> <ul> >>>>>>>>>> + <li><a href="http://www.twitter.com/ >>>>>>>>>> apache_ofbiz/" target="_blank">Now OFBiz on <b>TWITTER</b>, follow >>>>>>>>>> the news from an enduser perspective</a>, up to one tweet per day. >>>>>>>>>> You can also promote OFBiz at your site with this news, >>>>>>>>>> look <a href="http://www.antwebsystems.com";>here for an >>>>>>>>>> example.</a></li> >>>>>>>>>> <li><a >>>>>>>>>> href="http://www.hotwaxmedia.com/apache-ofbiz-blog/ofbiz-tutorial-implementing-a-product-pdf-export/ >>>>>>>>>> " >>>>>>>>>> target="_blank">OFBiz Tutorial â?" Implementing a Product PDF >>>>>>>>>> export</a> on <a >>>>>>>>>> href="http://www.hotwaxmedia.com/apache-ofbiz-blo g/" >>>>>>>>>> target="_blank">HotWax Media Blog</a></li> >>>>>>>>>> <li><a >>>>>>>>>> href="http://www.hotwaxmedia.com/apache-ofbiz-blog/ofbiz-tutorial-implementing-a-product-csv-export/ >>>>>>>>>> " >>>>>>>>>> target="_blank">OFBiz Tutorial â?" Implementing a Product CSV >>>>>>>>>> export</a> on <a >>>>>>>>>> href="http://www.hotwaxmedia.com/apache-ofbiz-blo g/" >>>>>>>>>> target="_blank">HotWax Media Blog</a></li> >>>>>>>>>> <li><a >>>>>>>>>> href="http://www.hotwaxmedia.com/apache-ofbiz-blog/ofbiz-tutorial-enhancing-the-product-list-screen/ >>>>>>>>>> " >>>>>>>>>> target="_blank">OFBiz Tutorial â?" Enhancing the Product list >>>>>>>>>> screen</a> on <a >>>>>>>>>> href="http://www.hotwaxmedia.com/apache-ofbiz-blo g/" >>>>>>>>>> target="_blank">HotWax Media Blog</a></li> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >>> >> >
