David,
Something has to be done because, to be clear, Hans was not taking into account
our comments repeated 2 or 3 times. I tried this
harsh way because I knew it will do something. As I said I did not like to do
it and actually I was expecting some reactions.
It seems that it's not a success so far because I have not received the credentials to http://twitter.com/apache_ofbiz , but
maybe
other committers got it?
Hans, I may help you if you need it and send you the list of commiters email addresses? Do you think this page/account is fair if
we
(commiters) have no access to it?
One more time I think Hans had a good idea to create this account and put a
button to it from the main page. It's only that it
should be shared. OK, let's see what will happen...
Jacques
From: "David E Jones" <d...@me.com>
>
> I agree with you Tim, effective giving and responding to feedback is vitally important to successful collaboration and all of
> us
> working together to build a strong community and make good software. Scott's response to my recent multi-tenant changes is a
> great
> example of such feedback, and hopefully I'll be able to respond to that
feedback in a helpful way.
>
> That is a bit different than the issue here, which is that Jacques seemed to be trying to get people to do certain things
> because
> of rules. Confronting others on bad behavior or breaking rules is a good thing IMO, but this was going beyond that with a
> specific
> interpretation of the rules that didn't seem to fit and specific remedies to the indiscretions that also seemed somewhat
> unhelpful
> (ie getting into legal interpretations and remedies that are not consistent with what others understood of laws and ASF
> policies),
> and then going even beyond that to threaten an appeal to greater authority and possible legal action if the demands were not
> met,
> calling it all "justice". And yeah, I have a problem with that, hence my
message to confront Jacques for that behavior.
>
> Stepping to back to really effective communication and problem solving, if I were to push anything I guess it would be to read
> the
> book "Simpleology" by Mark Joyner. That book is full of excellent stuff about
problem solving and collaborating with others.
>
> While I'm plugging books I can't help but mention "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle
Maintenance" by Robert Pirsig. It's a fun read
> and does the best job I've ever seen of dealing with the sometimes maddening
topics of quality and subject/object distinction
> (some key elements of clear and useful thinking). Okay, that's only related to this topic so much, but I had to mention it.
> This
> makes me want to sit down and do some reading (or go for a walk and do some
listening), but I guess I'm having too much fun
> redesigning the foundation of my career (which has been cathartic and
refreshing, sort of a Moqui ball like experience).
>
> -David
>
>
> On Mar 7, 2010, at 4:22 PM, Tim Ruppert wrote:
>
>> My real question would be why is it always "hurting" people to bring up that the rules as they have been defined have been
>> broken
>> again? What was done wasn't correct, people mentioned it nicely, but then
that wasn't ok - and it goes from there.
>>
>> The simple process of someone breaking the rules or stretching the truth
SHOULD be able to be brought up - and instead of
>> defensiveness, it should be greeted with, "Man, I'm so sorry, let's look into that together." Instead, an innocuous request
>> to
>> revert something that doesn't follow the PMC guidelines - or anyone's for
that matter - was met with resistance and a passive
>> aggressive comment meant to say that the original committer felt attacked.
>>
>> I think you need to start there - figuring out ways to get people to not be
defensive in the face of someone looking at their
>> work - then you can get back to building up the process of having people
work together. When someone cries wolf every time
>> anyone else mentions anything about the work - instead of taking the initiative to engage in the dialog - then that's where
>> this
>> slippery slope starts. It really shouldn't go downhill when someone questioning a commit - that should happen MORE often
>> IMO -
>> and the project would be better for it.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Ruppert
>>
>> On Mar 7, 2010, at 4:16 PM, David E Jones wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Hmmmm... given the misunderstanding of other things I've written (seems to be from an incorrect guess at motives and goals
>>> for
>>> what I write), I guess we'll see how this goes. Maybe in advance I should say that my
point is that "Justice" is not an
>>> effective way to get people to do, or not do, something.
>>>
>>> The type of justice you're talking about is not following the rules, it is
trying to get other people to follow the rules.
>>> Unfortunately justice efforts are usually not about restitution and are instead about punishment. And what is the point of
>>> that
>>> if not some form of revenge?
>>>
>>> People may feel better about being mean or harming others because the
others have broken some rule, but I'd hardly say that
>>> justifies the meanness and harm, even if we do call that "justice". If
there is a bad law do you feel an obligation to follow
>>> it, or do you feel justified in harming others because it allows you to? If
so then you're in a group with most people in the
>>> world who think that they can blame their actions on those who make the
rules or tell them to do (or not do) something.
>>>
>>> Back to the point... how much use has that been here? Has it helped us all get along and collaborate to produce better
>>> software?
>>>
>>> -David
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mar 7, 2010, at 2:36 PM, Jacques Le Roux wrote:
>>>
>>>> I have any revenge in this. Justice is "follow the rules". Who make the
rules is another problem.
>>>>
>>>> Jacques
>>>>
>>>> From: "David E Jones" <d...@me.com>
>>>>> What does justice have to do with this? Also, is justice really a
priority for people?
>>>>>
>>>>> I'll state clearly that it is not for me. Justice is highly subjective and usually
just a nice way of saying "revenge".
>>>>>
>>>>> -David
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mar 7, 2010, at 9:29 AM, Jacques Le Roux wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> From: "Scott Gray" <scott.g...@hotwaxmedia.com>
>>>>>>>> I should be pretty clear at this moment. The works "Apache" "OFBiz" and the
phrase "Apache OFBiz" are ASF trademarks:
>>>>>>>> http://www.apache.org/foundation/marks/ (I use references to sections
of this page in the following)
>>>>>>>> So they can't be used in domain name (cf. section "Using Apache trademarks
in domain names"). Hans can't use
>>>>>>>> http://twitter.com/apache_ofbiz alone as an individual or for his
company.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This is a domain name: twitter.com
>>>>>>> This is a URL: twitter.com/apache_ofbiz
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes I was wrong on that one, so I can see no problems with http://twitter.com/ofbizbyhotwax or
>>>>>> http://twitter.com/ofbiz_help
>>>>>> and I'm
>>>>>> happy with that.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So the first half of your message is completely invalid and threatening to contact higher level ASF admins before
>>>>>>> discussing
>>>>>>> it on
>>>>>>> the private list is bad form IMO.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Not completly, some arguments still stand and it would have been easier
if you have kept them in your answer. Notably the
>>>>>> name+logo
>>>>>> on http://twitter.com/apache_ofbiz which was the main reason I wrote
this message. I must say that in an effort to not put
>>>>>> all on
>>>>>> this Tweeter account I thought about this wrong domain idea.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Secondly, use of the OFBiz name and logo on service provider websites absolutely falls within the realm of nominative
>>>>>>> fair
>>>>>>> use IMO.
>>>>>>> How are you supposed to offer development and support services for
OFBiz if you cannot mention the name OFBiz and display
>>>>>>> the logo?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes in most cases it's fair and I did not reproach anything else about
that than on http://twitter.com/apache_ofbiz
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The fact that some logo uses do not link back to the project is a minor
issue and can easily be rectified without
>>>>>>> scaremongering by
>>>>>>> sending a polite message directly to the service provider in question.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If people are aware of it, why they did not do it then? This was the reason of my message. When you want justice, you
>>>>>> can't
>>>>>> hide
>>>>>> facts, even minor ones.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Let's be clear, we want people to market OFBiz for us because we do not
have the resources to do an adequate job of it
>>>>>>> ourselves.
>>>>>>> The thing that I think we should be most concerned about and actively "police" is what is written at the bottom of the
>>>>>>> ASF
>>>>>>> guideline document:
>>>>>> "Nothing in this ASF policy statement shall be interpreted to allow any third party to claim any association with the
>>>>>> Apache
>>>>>> Software Foundation or any of its projects or to imply any approval or
support by ASF for any third party products or
>>>>>> services."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes that's the point, I totally agree
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> We should be encouraging people to market OFBiz and instead of sending
out threatening emails.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If things are clean and follow the rule it's fine with me
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And lastly, haven't there been enough arguments on the dev list for one week? Do you really need to spark another one
>>>>>>> right
>>>>>>> now?
>>>>>>> Constant bickering just makes us all look bad.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Bickering is a new word for me, thanks for that. I don't care about lookin
"bad", I just want justice.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jacques
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Regards
>>>>>> Scott
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 7/03/2010, at 7:20 AM, Jacques Le Roux wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Scott,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Could you explain which part(s) I'm mis-interpreting and what is
irrelevant in my message?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Jacques
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> From: "Scott Gray" <scott.g...@hotwaxmedia.com>
>>>>>>> Jacques, you are mis-interpreting the contents of that ASF document and I really would prefer it if you kept your
>>>>>>> thoughts
>>>>>>> to the
>>>>>>> private list. This way we can correct you before you start scaring
people away from marketing the project for us.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thank you
>>>>>>> Scott
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 7/03/2010, at 2:20 AM, Jacques Le Roux wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hey guys,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This could be so easy :/
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hans agreed to give the credentials to all commiters but he asked us
to send him a demand.
>>>>>>>> We don't need to ask, if it's open Hans sould send all commiters the
credential to share apache_ofbiz Twitter account.
>>>>>>>> I should be pretty clear at this moment. The works "Apache" "OFBiz" and the
phrase "Apache OFBiz" are ASF trademarks:
>>>>>>>> http://www.apache.org/foundation/marks/ (I use references to sections
of this page in the following)
>>>>>>>> So they can't be used in domain name (cf. section "Using Apache trademarks
in domain names"). Hans can't use
>>>>>>>> http://twitter.com/apache_ofbiz alone as an individual or for his
company.
>>>>>>>> So please, for the last time, Hans before I ring Shane Curcuru's bell
(current VP, Apache Brand Management), simply send
>>>>>>>> credentials to all commiters and the war is over (Note that, though I don't think it's the way to go, I already asked
>>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>> to send
>>>>>>>> me credentials as you suggested, but did not receive anything yet).
Then I suggest to put the button like you did Hans.
>>>>>>>> It's a
>>>>>>>> *great idea* and I'm sure you will appreciate to have an help on
feeding the tweets as you already suggested.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> http://twitter.com/apache_ofbiz is a special case because not only it uses ASF trademark in domain name but it also
>>>>>>>> shows
>>>>>>>> it on
>>>>>>>> the page, along with OFBiz logo not going back to http://ofbiz.apache.org/ (cf. section "Using the Apache Foo (and
>>>>>>>> similar)
>>>>>>>> graphic logos")
>>>>>>>> But I don't see a reason why the rule for the domain should not apply
also to
>>>>>>>> http://twitter.com/ofbiz_help
>>>>>>>> http://twitter.com/ofbizbyhotwax
>>>>>>>> And Hans just followed the path actually... (is there other cases?)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Some other points which are related and worth to be noted
>>>>>>>> Hotwax Media must care about how they use the OFBiz logo in their pages at http://www.hotwaxmedia.com. The rule is that
>>>>>>>> if
>>>>>>>> it's
>>>>>>>> not adapted (like Hans did for OFBiz in Thailand at , it should only
link back to http://ofbiz.apache.org/
>>>>>>>> Same for the footer of http://www.antwebsystems.com/control/main (the "OFBiz feather" used for the tweet could be ok if
>>>>>>>> all
>>>>>>>> commiters get credentials and the PMC agree is the OFBiz official
Tweeter account). Now http://www.ofbiz.in.th/ is wrong
>>>>>>>> also as
>>>>>>>> long it's not on the ASF infra (ofbiz should not be used in domain
name outsided of ASF infrastructure, is there other
>>>>>>>> cases?)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It's time to clean the house, before all this becomes unmanageable (proliferation). I made my best to explain the rules,
>>>>>>>> if
>>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>> see a flaw in my reasoning please correct me. If you see other cases
that should be corrected, chime in, it's your duty!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And please also understand that it's really not pleaseant for me (or anyone else I guess) to play the cop and spend so
>>>>>>>> much
>>>>>>>> time
>>>>>>>> on this (for persons out of PMC, we already shared some about this privately). I dot it only because I'm a third party
>>>>>>>> (ie
>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>> HWM affiliated nor Ant Web) and I like things to be clear and no
injustices prevail. If we continue to ignore this facts
>>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>>> will finally blow up in our faces (as this Tweeter account issue being
to show) and nobody will win anything. There are
>>>>>>>> rules,
>>>>>>>> why not simply follow them, is that so hard?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Jacques
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> From: "Tim Ruppert" <tim.rupp...@hotwaxmedia.com>
>>>>>>>>> Hans, please revert this one too - sorry. It wouldn't make sense for all service providers to do this - so please
>>>>>>>>> let's
>>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>> keep doing this stuff.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> What i would recommend for this kind of stuff, if we need to list it
at all, would be to enhance the service providers
>>>>>>>>> page on
>>>>>>>>> the wiki. I mentioned this earlier but maybe we should add a full
page, linked from the service provider page, where
>>>>>>>>> people
>>>>>>>>> can put this type of info? I personally think this is what your own
website is for, but I'm all for enhancing
>>>>>>>>> everyone's
>>>>>>>>> ability to get the word out.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> What does everyone think of that as a place to promote yourself?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>>> Ruppert
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> Tim Ruppert
>>>>>>>>> HotWax Media
>>>>>>>>> http://www.hotwaxmedia.com
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> o:801.649.6594
>>>>>>>>> f:801.649.6595
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Mar 6, 2010, at 7:22 PM, Scott Gray <scott.g...@hotwaxmedia.com>
wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I'm only going to send one email about this, If anyone else cares
they can push it.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> This is news:
>>>>>>>>>>> <a href="http://www.twitter.com/apache_ofbiz/"; target="_blank">Now OFBiz on
<b>TWITTER</b>, follow the news from an
>>>>>>>>>>> enduser
>>>>>>>>>>> perspective</a>, up to one tweet per day.
>>>>>>>>>> A link to your home page is not:
>>>>>>>>>>> You can also promote OFBiz at your site with this news, look <a
href="http://www.antwebsystems.com";>here for an
>>>>>>>>>>> example.</a>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Why you are constantly trying to push the boundaries I have no idea.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Regards
>>>>>>>>>> Scott
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 6/03/2010, at 6:14 PM, hans...@apache.org wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Author: hansbak
>>>>>>>>>>> Date: Sun Mar 7 01:14:19 2010
>>>>>>>>>>> New Revision: 919905
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> URL: http://svn.apache.org/viewvc?rev=919905&view=rev
>>>>>>>>>>> Log:
>>>>>>>>>>> announcing the ofbiz twitter news now in line with the other news
offerings.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Modified:
>>>>>>>>>>> ofbiz/site/index.html
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Modified: ofbiz/site/index.html
>>>>>>>>>>> URL:
http://svn.apache.org/viewvc/ofbiz/site/index.html?rev=919905&r1=919904&r2=919905&view=diff
>>>>>>>>>>> === === ===
=====================================================================
>>>>>>>>>>> --- ofbiz/site/index.html (original)
>>>>>>>>>>> +++ ofbiz/site/index.html Sun Mar 7 01:14:19 2010
>>>>>>>>>>> @@ -237,6 +237,7 @@
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> <h2>In the News</h2>
>>>>>>>>>>> <ul>
>>>>>>>>>>> + <li><a href="http://www.twitter.com/ apache_ofbiz/"
target="_blank">Now OFBiz on <b>TWITTER</b>,
>>>>>>>>>>> follow
>>>>>>>>>>> the news from an enduser perspective</a>, up to one tweet per day.
You can also promote OFBiz at your site with this
>>>>>>>>>>> news,
>>>>>>>>>>> look <a href="http://www.antwebsystems.com";>here for an
example.</a></li>
>>>>>>>>>>> <li><a
>>>>>>>>>>> href="http://www.hotwaxmedia.com/apache-ofbiz-blog/ofbiz-tutorial-implementing-a-product-pdf-export/ "
>>>>>>>>>>> target="_blank">OFBiz Tutorial â?" Implementing a Product PDF
export</a> on <a
>>>>>>>>>>> href="http://www.hotwaxmedia.com/apache-ofbiz-blo g/" target="_blank">HotWax
Media Blog</a></li>
>>>>>>>>>>> <li><a
>>>>>>>>>>> href="http://www.hotwaxmedia.com/apache-ofbiz-blog/ofbiz-tutorial-implementing-a-product-csv-export/ "
>>>>>>>>>>> target="_blank">OFBiz Tutorial â?" Implementing a Product CSV
export</a> on <a
>>>>>>>>>>> href="http://www.hotwaxmedia.com/apache-ofbiz-blo g/" target="_blank">HotWax
Media Blog</a></li>
>>>>>>>>>>> <li><a
>>>>>>>>>>> href="http://www.hotwaxmedia.com/apache-ofbiz-blog/ofbiz-tutorial-enhancing-the-product-list-screen/ "
>>>>>>>>>>> target="_blank">OFBiz Tutorial â?" Enhancing the Product list
screen</a> on <a
>>>>>>>>>>> href="http://www.hotwaxmedia.com/apache-ofbiz-blo g/" target="_blank">HotWax
Media Blog</a></li>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
