On 12/9/05, Frank W. Zammetti <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Yeah, I forgot the debugger point :) > > Like I said, I've been coding *a lot* of years (25+ at this point).. > granted, most of that wasn't Java, but still... I've become extremely > intuitive in my debugging approach. I don't say this with an ego... > which is rare for me! :) ... but I can't tell you how many times someone > has asked me to help debug something, and I'd look at the code for a > little while and then say "ok, change X to Y and try it", and lo and > behold that solves the problem, but then I can't explain why.
My turn to date myself, along with Frank. ;-) In my first programming job, I wrote my code on coding sheets. When I was done, those would go to a data entry group, who would type the code on to punched cards. Then the cards would go to the sysops, who would schedule the job. When the job completed, usually the next day, I would get a pile of paper back. That edit /compile cycle alone taught me to be very, very careful and deliberate when I write my code. If something went wrong with my code, I got a 3 inch thick pile of paper on my desk. That was a mainframe core dump. That was it. There was no debugger. Heck, the machine didn't even have terminals. I had to figure out what was wrong by looking through the core dump and matching it up with my code. That experience, for me, was where I learned the skill that Frank mentions above - to be able to look at the code and find the bug. I won't say I never use a debugger, but it's been very rare, at least since I started working in Java. In my C++ days, I used to spend many hours in a debugger - often finding the hairy problems by reading through generated assembly code rather than the C++ code itself. But somehow in Java I haven't had the same need. As for IDEs, I share many of Frank's opinions from his first post in this thread. In my case, I use CodeWright rather than UltraEdit, and the complaints around me are about Eclipse rather than RAD, but otherwise we seem to be in similar situations. ;-) I won't say I never use an IDE, either. If I need to do a bunch of refactoring of Java code, I'll fire up Eclipse to do it. (I used IDEA for a while, but my current company "standardised" on Eclipse, so there's less pain in using that.) But it doesn't do much else for me that I can't do in CodeWright. And frankly, these days, I probably spend more time writing JavaScript and XML than I do Java, and Eclipse is pretty hopeless there. Or maybe I'll claim that I use a UDE - CodeWright's tag line used to be "The Universal Development Environment". ;-) Like UltraEdit, it's customisable up the wazoo. Sadly, it was acquired by Borland not so long ago, so I fully expect that it will go away soon, as have all of the other independent tools I used to use that were acquired by Borland. ;-( -- Martin Cooper So, for me, 95% of the time, a debugger doesn't help me. There have > been cases where a colleague and me both were trying to debug something, > he with an IDE and all the debugging capabilities in has, and me with > Notepad and a command line, and guess who finds the problem first? > > Again, not as an ego stroke or anything, but just to illustrate that at > a certain point a debugger doesn't help as much as you would logically > expect. > > That being said, I have become rather fond of JSwat for those times when > my intuition fails me :) Most of my build scripts now include a target > that starts JSwat and gets it ready to debug whatever the project is. > > But again, let me repeat my constant refrain: whatever works best for an > individual developer is OK with me :) I think coding is a very > personal, tailored thing, and that's probably why there's so many IDEs, > text editor and other options :) > > Frank > > Sean Schofield wrote: > > Ummm... I guess you guys don't do a lot of debugging then? You would > > rather imagine what a value was a certain point in time rather then > > actually know what is was? If you never make mistakes then there is > > no issue but if you think a value is 'x' it only take 5 seconds to be > > 100% sure. Of course there is System.out.println but are you going to > > add those for all 10, 15 values in question? > > > > I agree that a lot of IDE features are overrated. I'm also not a big > > fan of Eclipse either but that is not the only IDE. There are some > > things an IDE gives you that I think you're crazy to miss out on. > > Managing all of your packages and classpaths is trivial. Then there > > are the refactoring tools. > > > > I don't know if it makes sense to use a text editor just because you > > are "mad at your IDE." Maybe you should get a better IDE? Try > > JBuilder 2005. The free version does everything you vi lovers would > > need. I don't buy the argument that IDE's are slow. I agreed with > > that argument when the first java based IDE's emerged in the 90's but > > we're way past that point. You can also turn off most of the > > questionably helpful stuff that you are complaining about. > > > > My 2 cents. You are free to use whatever you want of course. Just > > thought it would be a fun Friday topic to find out what the IDE haters > > are thinking. I'm pretty comfortable sticking with mine but whatever > > "flips your boat." > > > > sean > > > > > > On 12/9/05, Frank W. Zammetti <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > >>That's a good point Greg, and it applies for me too... I have a number > >>of different IDEs installed, and on occassion I will use a feature of > >>one or another... I've pulled stuff into IDEA and used its code > >>inspectors for example. I've used an Eclipse plug-in here and there > >>too. So it's not like I *never* touch an IDE, but for me its very > >>targeted usages, I can't imagine being in any of them all day. > >> > >>Frank > >> > >>Greg Reddin wrote: > >> > >>>On Dec 9, 2005, at 8:02 AM, Sean Schofield wrote: > >>> > >>> > >>>>>Please keep in mind that there are still a good number of people who > do > >>>>>not use an IDE at all. > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>>Why on earth would you someone do such a thing? Seriously. I'd like > >>>>to know :-) > >>> > >>> > >>>Bragging rights, what else :-) > >>> > >>>There are occasions when I simply use vi and ant/maven/etc. either > >>>because I'm wanting to be closer to the bits and know what's going on > >>>or I'm too lazy to start Netbeans or because I'm pissed off at > >>>Netbeans. Then as soon as i have to code a JavaBean with a bunch of > >>>gets/sets I'll fire it up. Or do some refactoring, etc. > >>> > >>>So it just depends on my mood. When I feel trapped by the IDE I'll > >>>move it out of the way. When I feel trapped by the command line > I fire > >>>up the IDE. Sometimes I like to go without an IDE just so I will not > >>>forget what the IDE is really doing for me. > >>> > >>>And sometimes it's because I'm using a new tool and either the IDE > >>>doesn't support it yet or I'm trying to learn it first before I try to > >>>learn how the IDE wants me to use it. Case in point: Creator and > >>>JSF. On my first JSF app I'm doing it at the command line using > >>>NetBeans for coding and maven to build. Then I'll probably do my next > >>>one in Creator so I can see what kind of value it adds. > >>> > >>>I used to think people who used multiple IDE's had a death wish, but > >>>now I'm seeing the value in that too. For example, Creator is > based on > >>>Netbeans 4, but I like some features in Netbeand 5. So I'm starting > to > >>>use Creator in places where it makes sense to do so, Netbeans > >>>elsewhere, and maven to compile/run/test everything. I haven't tried > >>>Eclipse yet :-) > >>> > >>>Greg > >>> > >>>--------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >>>For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> > >>-- > >>Frank W. Zammetti > >>Founder and Chief Software Architect > >>Omnytex Technologies > >>http://www.omnytex.com > >>AIM: fzammetti > >>Yahoo: fzammetti > >>MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> > >>--------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >>For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > -- > Frank W. Zammetti > Founder and Chief Software Architect > Omnytex Technologies > http://www.omnytex.com > AIM: fzammetti > Yahoo: fzammetti > MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >
