On Sun, Nov 27, 2011 at 6:04 AM, Christian Grobmeier <grobme...@gmail.com> wrote: > Hello Martin, > > On Sun, Nov 27, 2011 at 3:57 AM, Martin Cooper <mfncoo...@gmail.com> wrote: >> On Sat, Nov 26, 2011 at 2:51 PM, Christian Grobmeier > >>> I have added a hero section. > >> A what? > > This is the first huge section, showing what the page is about. > Like here: http://incubator.apache.org/directmemory/ > >>> Unfortunately I needed to remove the h2, h3 etc to make this work >>> because of a doxia bug. It seems it is already fixed in trunk, so I >>> think we can leave it now and replace it later. (the bug replaces h2 >>> with <div class="secton"><h2>... - this kills everything) >> >> I'd say the missing h2, h3, et al, is a showstopper. > > OK, then we can't use fluido now, except we add anything in sequence > (like it is today). This is terrible to read imho and so the question > is if we need to wait for a new doxia release then.
The updated version you posted is better. The headings are important. Just bolding text doesn't provide for accessibility, and doesn't provide screen readers the means to navigate through the page. We need to be mindful, with a framework as popular as Struts, that we are addressing the needs of all readers, so accessibility is very important. >>> I think we should make the text somehow smaller if possible. It is >>> very much too read and probably we should just have a teaser on the >>> the various paragraphs. >> >> I disagree. The Recent Releases section needs to come back to the top, >> where it is prominent for the majority of existing users, who are >> returning for the latest update. The remainder of the page is designed >> for those new to Struts, and there needs to be enough meat right there >> on the home page to hold their interest and entice them to stay on the >> site, rather than just provide a bunch of links and hope they'll click >> on one. > > I didn't mean smaller in terms of font size, sorry for being unclear. Neither did I. :-) > Actually the "news" section is on top right and very prominent to me. > Struts has an "Announcements" page were everything is detail. This > page is pretty useless if we write nearly everything on the frontpage. > In addtion there are release notes. There are 3 different pages > containing similar information. I don't think this is good and should > be streamlined. The front page serves two sets of primary readers. Number one is the people who are looking for the latest update of the framework. That is why release notes is top and center on the existing site. Struts is so well known now that updates is *the* most needed information. Number two is introductory text for people new to Struts - just enough information for them to get oriented about the framework and understand where they need to go next. Everybody outside these two groups is on the way to somewhere else when they come to the front page. > In addition, the current "news" on the front page are from 2008 two > times and one from 2011. So... the 2008 news are not really helpful to > anybody. I would remove them or keep them on the annoucments page if > necessary. I agree with you about the 2.0.14 release. I expect it's still there just because nobody got around to removing it. The 1.3.10 release needs to stay because there are tens of thousands of people using Struts 1 in production, and they still need to be able to see what the latest release of that is, even if we think it's really old. >>> In addtion, we should use some kind of "news format". Like: >>> >>> 10.12.2001 >>> Struts 2.2.3.1 released >>> This release contains a security fix. >>> See: Release Note >>> >>> And so on. I mean: date, short headline, short content (just one >>> sentence) and the link to the release notes. >> >> For releases, that's exactly what Recent Releases is for, and that's >> why it should be at the top. Other announcements are on the >> Announcements page, linked from the menu. > > As mentioned it is on top (right). Only if you have a large screen *and* you dedicate that large screen to your browser window. See more below. > Announcements page contains only the 2011 release. And "recent > releases" cotains 2008 releases. Not very recent. See above. >>> So - what do you think abou it? >> >> I see some significant issues with the sample home page: >> >> * The dark menu bar thing at the top wraps in a weird way, and starts >> to cover up the logos, which looks really bad. (And it's not obvious >> that it's a wrapping issue unless you have enough real estate to >> resize and avoid the wrap.) There are also weird garbage artifacts >> when you work with this menu bar. Given that it provides no additional >> functionality, is very ugly, and doesn't work well, I'd recommend >> scrapping it. > > This dark menu bar is called "topbar" in fludio terms. It is pretty > easy to disable it and I have no problems with doing that. Basically > it contains the same link as on the left side. I have left it in b/c > many people seem to like that nowadays. Anyway, I am with you and > remove it. > > Btw, the covering of the logo is b/c the topbar is fixed position. > This is what Gmail and those kind of apps do today, I think this is > the reason why it has been brought into bootstrap. Well, i remove it. > >> * There's a huge waste of space with just "Apache Struts" in a big >> font, one sentence, and two buttons. Given that this is right below >> both the ASF logo, at top left, and the Struts logo, at top right, >> this serves no function and just takes up space - and prime real >> estate, at that - and forces everyone to scroll to get to anything >> useful. > > This is the "hero unit". > > Actually I disagree. It gives you the chance to see at one glance what > it is about and leads you to the most important links: technic primer > and downloads. > I don't know what your monitor size is, but I don't have to scroll. When I first looked at your prototype, I was using a 13" MacBook Pro, a very common machine. I keep my dock on the right. I usually have an Adium contact list down the left, and the browser occupying the remainder of that space. With that setup, the "topbar" wraps, and the Recent Releases shows up at the bottom. If I maximise the browser window, the "topbar" displays properly, but Recent Releases is still at the bottom of the page. The only way to get Recent Releases where it's designed to be is if I reconfigure my desktop to put the dock on the bottom - not something anyone is going to do. When I moved to a 24" external monitor and maximised my browser window, I saw what you expected people to see. But I also saw vast seas of wasted space - whitespace - for example, below Recent Releases. Perhaps you run with a maximised browser window on a large monitor all the time, but we can't assume that everyone does. Even when I'm using my 24" monitor, my default browser window size is too small for Recent Releases to show up on the right; it still appeared at the bottom until I maximised the window. Just for reference, a width of approximately 1090 pixels was required to get the "topbar" to show up without wrapping, and a width of approximately 1250 was needed to get Recent Releases at the top right. Given probably the single most common screen size of 1024 x 768, neither of these would work as expected, and the latter will only just fit on a 1280 x 1024 display with the browser maximised. When I said everyone needs to scroll, I meant vertically. It is just nuts to take up virtually the entire visible window with a big splash of what everyone already knows - this is the Apache Struts home page. We've already taken up the page header with this information; it is silly to take up even more, and force everyone to scroll past it to get to *anything* useful. Incidentally, I'm not arguing about the buttons; what I dislike is the huge amount of wasted space that this "hero" section (anti-hero section? :p ) takes up, instead of making useful information available to the reader without scrolling. > Anyway this is a matter of taste, if others don't like it, I can > remove it of course. It's a matter of usability and accessibility, not taste. Imagine that you need to scroll via voice commands, and that we have a home page which is useless to you until you scroll down. Or imagine that you need to use a screen reader, but there are no guides on the page that give the screen reader the clues it needs to do that for you. It doesn't matter how pretty the site is, or is not, if it doesn't work for everyone. >> * The column width does not increase as I resize my browser window. >> Yet I'm forced to resize the window to get the menu to render >> properly. > > Can you explain whcih browser size you are using? And which menu does > not render - the topbar or the sidebar? > Probably this will explain why you say the "recents news" are not on > top, because they move down if the browser is to small. See above. >> * We need proper headings (as mentioned above) rather than the random >> first words in a section in a big bold font. Section titles are chosen >> for meaning. > > As there is nobody parsing this site Not true. Screen readers need to parse it, and they use the page structure to provide navigation to the user. You may want to spend some time reading up on accessibility and then keep that in mind for any site redesign here. > I wonder why this is so important > for the moment when it looks the same. > Of course I would like to have proper h2 etc too, but then fluido is > not possible as explained above (or we use sequential paragraphs) > >> * The release information at the bottom is in a super-narrow column >> for no apparent reason, again forcing me to scroll unnecessarily. > > Just an idea - why not putting the latest "recent release" into the > hero unit? 2008 can be left out imho, but the the hero unit would have > more functionality too. > >> * The Next link, leading to the sequence running through our pages, is >> missing completely. > > The next link on the bottom was leading to the "releass" page. I have > put this link into the hero unit and renamed it to "Download" for > better visibility. When Ted put those Next links into the site years ago, he did so because there was a logical sequence of pages for a new reader to follow, as they learned about Struts. That sequence should still be there. We shouldn't just toss that out; it served a very real purpose, and we should be mindful of that. >> * Visited links are not coloured differently from unvisited ones. > > Thats a feature of bootstrap. I have already had this discussion on > the incubator ml. I don't like have the colors changed. But others > seem to like it. If you would like that, please name me a color which > you would like to see for visited links and I will use it. I don't really care what colour it is (within reason!). But for usability reasons, it needs to be easy to visually identify which links have been visited and which have not. And for accessibility reasons too, actually - imagine that you're using voice commands, and you want to say "next unvisited link" - except that you can't see which one that is, because they're all the same colour. >> Overall, it looks pretty and trendy, but actual usability has gone >> down the tubes and is pretty awful. I'd personally prefer to see us >> stick with what we have unless the usability can be brought back to at >> least what we have now. Usability is far more important than pretty or >> trendy. > > OK.... actually the current page is not very usable for me because: > > - way to much text on it The person looking for new releases has maybe 3 sentences to read (if we remove 2.0.14, as mentioned above). The person new to Struts gets a reasonable amount of useful information after having to scroll past only 3 sentences of release announcements. That seems just right to me. Why do you think there is too much? And for which readers? > - search is somewhere hidden on the bottom Interesting. Do people really come to the Struts front page and *then* search? I'd love to know if we have stats on that. I don't believe I have ever used the search box, because if I want to search the Struts site, I'll use "site:struts.apache.org" instead of ever coming to the front page of our site. > - no easy way to get to the downloads Um, each release note has a link directly to the download for that release, and these are the first sentences on the page. That's pretty easy, if you ask me. True, it's less easy for older releases - but we don't want to promote downloading of older releases anyway. > - outdated news To be clear, I am not arguing against any updates to the page. Sure, if we have outdated news, we should fix that. But the news isn't going to be magically kept up to date just because we switch to using a pretty page style. :-) > - news do not differ in design from other text And it should because ... ? > - everything to "plain" for my eyes Okay, *this* is taste. :-) > - Announcments page does contain less information the "recent > releases" box on frontpage Like the "outdated news" comment, this isn't something that will be magically fixed by a pretty style. It needs constant attention from the team to keep it up to date, regardless of what style is in use - current, fluido, or something else. > - "Release notes" are not found easily (actually I am still searching > while typing) How about that "release notes" link in the very first section of the page? That was too hard? :-) > - the "page flow" with the next links somewhere on the bottom is > broken when you reach the Kickstart FAQ. Or is this intended? I haven't chased the sequence for some time now. Certainly, as mentioned above, there was a meaningful sequence when it was introduced, and helped new users get to know the framework and also get to know the site. > Last but not least, it seems the Struts page do not conform the > branding requirements. > I see only: "Copyright © 2000-2011 The Apache Software Foundation. All > Rights Reserved." > But shouldn't it containt this too?: > "Apache Foo, Foo, Apache, the Apache feather logo, and the Apache Foo > project logo are trademarks of The Apache Software Foundation." > http://www.apache.org/foundation/marks/pmcs.html If there are branding policy infractions, then clearly we need to fix those, yes. Again, though, that can be done with the current style, the fluido style, or something else. To be very clear, I am not arguing against change. I'm quite happy if people want to take the time to "freshen" the site, and even more so if they're willing to commit to keeping the content more up to date over time. What is important to me is the usability of the site and the accessibility of the site. We have a responsibility to the many thousands of Struts users out there to make sure that *everyone* can use the site as easily as possible. -- Martin Cooper > Cheers, > Christian > > >> >> -- >> Martin Cooper >> >> >>> Cheers >>> Christian >>> >>> On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 6:43 PM, Maurizio Cucchiara >>> <mcucchi...@apache.org> wrote: >>>> Just for the record looks like Simone has already moved out of the >>>> sandbox the plugin >>>> >>>> https://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/maven/skins/trunk/maven-fluido-skin/ >>>> >>>> Anyway I would like to see a kind of refresh on struts website, you >>>> can count on my help. >>>> >>>> Twitter :http://www.twitter.com/m_cucchiara >>>> G+ :https://plus.google.com/107903711540963855921 >>>> Linkedin :http://www.linkedin.com/in/mauriziocucchiara >>>> >>>> Maurizio Cucchiara >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On 16 November 2011 17:47, Maurizio Cucchiara <mcucchi...@apache.org> >>>> wrote: >>>>> Hi Christian, >>>>> I have done some tests a couple of weeks ago, IIRC there was some >>>>> issue using the fluido plugin. >>>>> For what concern the website, consider that struts website root >>>>> resides, as you noticed before, belong the following path >>>>> http://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/struts/site/ >>>>> >>>>> Here there is the S2 website (nothing more than a single page :) ) >>>>> http://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/struts/struts2/trunk/src/site/ >>>>> >>>>> And the third one, is used by the Confluence export plugin (I'm pretty >>>>> sure, though I could be wrong) >>>>> >>>>> With that saying, I published the fluido verson of struts website >>>>> http://people.apache.org/~mcucchiara/struts/www/ >>>>> Let's see the first impressions (for example I just realized that >>>>> fluido doesn't provide the links to S1, S2 on top bar). >>>>> >>>>> Twitter :http://www.twitter.com/m_cucchiara >>>>> G+ :https://plus.google.com/107903711540963855921 >>>>> Linkedin :http://www.linkedin.com/in/mauriziocucchiara >>>>> >>>>> Maurizio Cucchiara >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 16 November 2011 16:50, Christian Grobmeier <grobme...@gmail.com> >>>>> wrote: >>>>>> Hey folks, >>>>>> >>>>>> I have contributed a little to the efford of Simone Tripodi to create >>>>>> a maven skin called fluido. >>>>>> It is based on the great bootstrap css framework. >>>>>> >>>>>> Here is an example: >>>>>> http://people.apache.org/~simonetripodi/ >>>>>> >>>>>> Simone has proposed to move this skin now to maven proper (currently >>>>>> in sandbox) and all participants are working straight to a release. >>>>>> >>>>>> Now, if there is an interest (and I think so) I volunteer to migrate >>>>>> the Struts website to this new skin, once it is available. >>>>>> >>>>>> Would be nice to hear some opinions and maybe some "wishes" if there >>>>>> are any before I start to do the work. >>>>>> >>>>>> For reference, here is the Bootstrap website: >>>>>> http://twitter.github.com/bootstrap/ >>>>>> >>>>>> I have found this repository which could be skinned: >>>>>> http://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/struts/site/ >>>>>> >>>>>> Here is some more >>>>>> http://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/struts/struts2/trunk/src/site/ >>>>>> http://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/struts/struts2/trunk/core/src/site/ >>>>>> >>>>>> I am not sure about these sites - how are they used? >>>>>> It seems esp the second link has something to do with Confluence. >>>>>> >>>>>> Am I missing anything else? >>>>>> >>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>> Christian >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> http://www.grobmeier.de >>>>>> >>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@struts.apache.org >>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@struts.apache.org >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@struts.apache.org >>>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@struts.apache.org >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> http://www.grobmeier.de >>> https://www.timeandbill.de >>> >>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@struts.apache.org >>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@struts.apache.org >>> >>> >> >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@struts.apache.org >> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@struts.apache.org >> > > > > -- > http://www.grobmeier.de > https://www.timeandbill.de > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@struts.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@struts.apache.org > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@struts.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@struts.apache.org
