> Well, there is a lot of argument that in the medical field, the system keeps out good doctors as much as it creates them. Talk to people who learn medicine outside the US and then move here where their qualifications are not recognized.
Yes. And? There are a lot of people that go overseas for medical treatment because it's cheaper and just as good. Free markets at work! If we change our subject to Lawyers: every single one of them need to pass the bar exam in every state they wish to practice. What affect does locking out capable lawyers "because they don't test well" have on the state bar association? Minimal I think as most people want a Lawyer that can "test well". ;-) > I think you have as much of a chance to enforce "Ethics and Standards" in Ssytem Administration as you do in Sales. I think we are talking about the same things here David. I am not arguing for or against "Professionalization". But to say that there is no chance in hell of creating a standard of fundamental instruction or ethical practice goes back to my original comment, "Man, if you have to ask what jazz is, you'll never know." If we go down this road, we can quickly say that "System Administration cannot be taught, System Administrators can only be born", which is a false statement, and more than a little self-aggrandizing. :D Of course System Administration can be taught! Of course there is an implied ethical constraint in designing an organizations information infrastructure! Have we found the fundamental principles that bind these things together yet? No. I don't think many people have actually looked. Where is our Little Schemer[1] for System Administration? This is what I mean when I say fundamentals; teaching System Administration from first principles. A verifiable (internally consistent), fundamental (from first principles), education (free or paid for), and from this logical approach an ethical system should arise naturally within the constraints of the system. [1]: http://kysmykseka.net/koti/wizardry/Programming/Lisp/Scheme/The%20Little%20Schemer%204th%20Ed.pdf On Sun, Jul 19, 2015 at 7:13 AM, David Lang <[email protected]> wrote: > On Sun, 19 Jul 2015, Joseph Kern wrote: > > Outside of the DoD, Information Security is in no better condition than >>> >> System Administration. >> >> Give it a minute. All the big commercial players that want DoD contracts >> must hire certified people now. General Dynamics, Northrup, Lockheed, etc. >> > > well, most of those companies have to hire people with Top Secret > Clearence, that doesn't mean that such clearances are ever going to be > common outside that niche. > > how can you impose any verifiable educational requiements when so many in >>> >> the field are completely self-taught? and how would you punish people for >> violating ethics without the ability to prevent people from working in the >> field?. >> >> Well you can't punish anyone without laws right? That's the lives >> Professionals live. Doctors, Lawyers, Engineers, CPAs, etc. They have a >> structure of laws and ethical practices that dictate their good standing >> in >> their chosen profession both ethically and legally. >> > > the barriers to entry are MUCH lower in IT, and getting lower all the > time. All those fields that you talk about either have aspects that make it > fairly easy to control them. Courts are small and so they can control who > accesses them. Engineers must be stisfactory to the government building > comissions. I'm not sure that CPA really counts because you can do a lot of > work in the accounting field without being a CPA > > Linux started with a student working on his own computer, and while most > Linux developers now are being paid for their work, most of them started > working on it as a hobby. > > Running even massive systems is now within the reach of hobbiests thanks > to Amazon AWS and similar. But let's ignore cloud providers for now. > > Remember that a lot of ISPs started from someone's garage, brining in lots > of phone lines and banks of modems. A similar investment today (in the > right location) would get someone a gigabit Internet connection and more > compute capability than all but the biggest companies had available to them > during the .com days. > > Adn over time, the processing power and connectivity available to the > individual is only going to improve. Trying to make laws saying that these > individuals are not able to use these resources unless they are certified. > > Add to this the International nature of the Internet, and the idea of > controlling who can manage systems becoems even more outlandish. > > I view any call for rules that would have prevented me from entering the >>> >> field with deep suspicion. >> >> Bingo David. Which is why I am not sure that "Professionalization" is >> really the road forward. >> > > So what is the road forward? > > I ran out of money for college back in '94 when I was takinga CS/Math >>> >> couble major. Deom there, I have no verifiable education (mostly >> self-taught, conference training, a smidge of vendor training) and am in >> the security sub-field of ssytem administration. >> >> Verifiable only in the context of teaching. Not in charging actual money. >> It's a high ideal, and reality will probably fall short, but it's worthy >> of >> effort. >> > > I'm not sure what you mean, most of my learning was not doen via methods > where money changed hands. > > This is why I think that looking at the automotive field is a much better >>> >> fit for comparison to system administration than the others that have been >> mentioned. It's the one other field that I can think of that allows >> completely self-taught people to work alongside of formally trained >> people. >> >> For sure. We need to preserve that aspect of this field. >> >> So I think trying to impose rules that would eliminate the vast majority >>> >> of people from the field is a waste of time. >> >> Has it been a waste of time for Doctors, Lawyers, Engineers, etc? School >> costs (the business side of education) certainly haven't dampened the >> number of students seeking the education. Do you think the quality of >> Doctors has risen since formal education and internship programs were >> instituted? >> > > Well, there is a lot of argument that in the medical field, the system > keeps out good doctors as much as it creates them. Talk to people who learn > medicine outside the US and then move here where their qualifications are > not recognized. > > I am in no way opposed to providing and encouraging education. I just > don't want to have anyone start blessing specific training or schools as > the only way to be educated. > > I think you have as much of a chance to enforce "Ethics and Standards" in > Ssytem Administration as you do in Sales. > > David Lang > -- Joseph A Kern [email protected]
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