And Sales does have an ethical enforcement consideration; the Better Business Bureau. Which is a non-profit like LOPSA. ;-)
On Sun, Jul 19, 2015 at 12:01 PM, Joseph Kern <[email protected]> wrote: > > Well, there is a lot of argument that in the medical field, the system > keeps out good doctors as much as it creates them. Talk to people who learn > medicine outside the US and then move here where their qualifications are > not recognized. > > Yes. And? There are a lot of people that go overseas for medical treatment > because it's cheaper and just as good. Free markets at work! > > If we change our subject to Lawyers: every single one of them need to pass > the bar exam in every state they wish to practice. What affect does locking > out capable lawyers "because they don't test well" have on the state bar > association? Minimal I think as most people want a Lawyer that can "test > well". ;-) > > > I think you have as much of a chance to enforce "Ethics and Standards" > in Ssytem Administration as you do in Sales. > > I think we are talking about the same things here David. I am not arguing > for or against "Professionalization". But to say that there is no chance in > hell of creating a standard of fundamental instruction or ethical practice > goes back to my original comment, "Man, if you have to ask what jazz is, > you'll never know." If we go down this road, we can quickly say that > "System Administration cannot be taught, System Administrators can only be > born", which is a false statement, and more than a little self-aggrandizing. > :D > > Of course System Administration can be taught! Of course there is an > implied ethical constraint in designing an organizations information > infrastructure! Have we found the fundamental principles that bind these > things together yet? No. I don't think many people have actually looked. > > Where is our Little Schemer[1] for System Administration? This is what I > mean when I say fundamentals; teaching System Administration from first > principles. A verifiable (internally consistent), fundamental (from first > principles), education (free or paid for), and from this logical approach > an ethical system should arise naturally within the constraints of the > system. > > [1]: > http://kysmykseka.net/koti/wizardry/Programming/Lisp/Scheme/The%20Little%20Schemer%204th%20Ed.pdf > > On Sun, Jul 19, 2015 at 7:13 AM, David Lang <[email protected]> wrote: > >> On Sun, 19 Jul 2015, Joseph Kern wrote: >> >> Outside of the DoD, Information Security is in no better condition than >>>> >>> System Administration. >>> >>> Give it a minute. All the big commercial players that want DoD contracts >>> must hire certified people now. General Dynamics, Northrup, Lockheed, >>> etc. >>> >> >> well, most of those companies have to hire people with Top Secret >> Clearence, that doesn't mean that such clearances are ever going to be >> common outside that niche. >> >> how can you impose any verifiable educational requiements when so many in >>>> >>> the field are completely self-taught? and how would you punish people for >>> violating ethics without the ability to prevent people from working in >>> the >>> field?. >>> >>> Well you can't punish anyone without laws right? That's the lives >>> Professionals live. Doctors, Lawyers, Engineers, CPAs, etc. They have a >>> structure of laws and ethical practices that dictate their good standing >>> in >>> their chosen profession both ethically and legally. >>> >> >> the barriers to entry are MUCH lower in IT, and getting lower all the >> time. All those fields that you talk about either have aspects that make it >> fairly easy to control them. Courts are small and so they can control who >> accesses them. Engineers must be stisfactory to the government building >> comissions. I'm not sure that CPA really counts because you can do a lot of >> work in the accounting field without being a CPA >> >> Linux started with a student working on his own computer, and while most >> Linux developers now are being paid for their work, most of them started >> working on it as a hobby. >> >> Running even massive systems is now within the reach of hobbiests thanks >> to Amazon AWS and similar. But let's ignore cloud providers for now. >> >> Remember that a lot of ISPs started from someone's garage, brining in >> lots of phone lines and banks of modems. A similar investment today (in the >> right location) would get someone a gigabit Internet connection and more >> compute capability than all but the biggest companies had available to them >> during the .com days. >> >> Adn over time, the processing power and connectivity available to the >> individual is only going to improve. Trying to make laws saying that these >> individuals are not able to use these resources unless they are certified. >> >> Add to this the International nature of the Internet, and the idea of >> controlling who can manage systems becoems even more outlandish. >> >> I view any call for rules that would have prevented me from entering the >>>> >>> field with deep suspicion. >>> >>> Bingo David. Which is why I am not sure that "Professionalization" is >>> really the road forward. >>> >> >> So what is the road forward? >> >> I ran out of money for college back in '94 when I was takinga CS/Math >>>> >>> couble major. Deom there, I have no verifiable education (mostly >>> self-taught, conference training, a smidge of vendor training) and am in >>> the security sub-field of ssytem administration. >>> >>> Verifiable only in the context of teaching. Not in charging actual money. >>> It's a high ideal, and reality will probably fall short, but it's worthy >>> of >>> effort. >>> >> >> I'm not sure what you mean, most of my learning was not doen via methods >> where money changed hands. >> >> This is why I think that looking at the automotive field is a much better >>>> >>> fit for comparison to system administration than the others that have >>> been >>> mentioned. It's the one other field that I can think of that allows >>> completely self-taught people to work alongside of formally trained >>> people. >>> >>> For sure. We need to preserve that aspect of this field. >>> >>> So I think trying to impose rules that would eliminate the vast majority >>>> >>> of people from the field is a waste of time. >>> >>> Has it been a waste of time for Doctors, Lawyers, Engineers, etc? School >>> costs (the business side of education) certainly haven't dampened the >>> number of students seeking the education. Do you think the quality of >>> Doctors has risen since formal education and internship programs were >>> instituted? >>> >> >> Well, there is a lot of argument that in the medical field, the system >> keeps out good doctors as much as it creates them. Talk to people who learn >> medicine outside the US and then move here where their qualifications are >> not recognized. >> >> I am in no way opposed to providing and encouraging education. I just >> don't want to have anyone start blessing specific training or schools as >> the only way to be educated. >> >> I think you have as much of a chance to enforce "Ethics and Standards" in >> Ssytem Administration as you do in Sales. >> >> David Lang >> > > > > -- > Joseph A Kern > [email protected] > -- Joseph A Kern [email protected]
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